Problem with Altiverb 7.4.7 - (RESOLVED)

[James Steele]

Just a follow up. I went ahead and installed Ventura last night (after first setting up another test volume and making sure my MC Control and MC Mix would still work... and they did). Most everything is running well. I tried opening Altiverb 7.4.6 AU... this time in Ventura, and it caused emergency stop of MAS. I was running DP native... I refuse to run it in Rosetta at this point.

So on a whim, I went ahead an installed Altiverb 7.4.7 AU and I'm happy to say that I have Altiverb back for now and no problems with the text... so all is good there. Very strange how it got messed up in the first place. Oh well...

[Michael Canavan]

I'm pretty sure MAS never supported pre-gen. Maybe MOTU has figured out a way to do that with their own stock plug-ins (which are now stored inside the DP application bundle). I suppose I could check, but again, pretty sure that was a drawback of using the MAS format: no pregen. Maybe that's changed. It would be interesting to load something like MW Limiter or any of the stock MOTU MAS plugins and see if they will go into "PG" mode.

I was pondering this. It's very likely Audio Ease coded the MAS plug in versions before PreGen was implemented in DP. this explains why their own plug ins work with PreGen, VST and AU's also do through the VST and and AU MAS plug in support. So if we're lucky they fix this when Altiverb etc. go native.

[James Steele]

I understand what you're saying, but I know for certain that when pregen was first implemented ONLY AU plugins could take advantage of it. MOTU's own MAS plugins did not use pregen, even after it was coded into DP. I remember running AU versions instead of MAS for this very reason.

Just as an example, I was playing with a very very old sequence from years ago and assigning different parts that were meant for external MIDI modules to VI. Here's the performance meter. I had the bass MIDI track playing MODO Bass. You can see MODO Bass running in PG. I duplicated the track and assigned it to an instance of MOTU's BassLine instrument. BassLine is running in Real Time.... even though it's window is closed.

I know it's weird, but it may be that MAS cannot run in pregen mode.

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[Michael Canavan]

I understand what you're saying, but I know for certain that when pregen was first implemented ONLY AU plugins could take advantage of it. MOTU's own MAS plugins did not use pregen, even after it was coded into DP. I remember running AU versions instead of MAS for this very reason.

Just as an example, I was playing with a very very old sequence from years ago and assigning different parts that were meant for external MIDI modules to VI. Here's the performance meter. I had the bass MIDI track playing MODO Bass. You can see MODO Bass running in PG. I duplicated the track and assigned it to an instance of MOTU's BassLine instrument. BassLine is running in Real Time.... even though it's window is closed.

I know it's weird, but it may be that MAS cannot run in pregen mode.


performancemeter.png

MAS literally stands for MOTU Audio System, all of DP's audio plug in infrastructure is called MAS. So when a VST or AU plug in ties into DP it's going through MAS. You can see this clearly by right clicking DP and selecting Show Package Contents. So DP/Contents/Mac OS/PlugIns/MAS in that folder are MAS VST3 Support.bundle,
MAS AudioUnit Support.bundle, and the MAS VST Support.bundle. What you do not see is a MAS MAS Support.bundle. You see all the included MOTU plug ins as well.

Right now embedded MOTU plug ins do not have resizable GUIs, this doesn't mean they cannot be coded with resizable GUI's it's just that MOTU are behind third party developers here, and it's not uncommon, Logics old embedded plugins have resizable GUIs, but they're not really recoded, they get blurry at larger settings etc.

What I'm trying to get across here is MAS can and does support PG in DP's own plug ins, they were behind third party developers with their own plug ins in terms of support, but according to the logic you can see in their folder structure, VST and AU run through MAS as well, in fact they run through a special plug in, and the included embedded MAS plug ins are running in PG now. So it makes much more sense that Audio Ease coded Altiverb before DP got PreGen, which is true, but whether the code documentation for creating a MAS plug in has been updated to use PreGen is of course something we can't know until we see one, but we already know they can exist because all the embedded plug ins run, and VST/AU are running through, a MAS layer that includes PreGen.

[James Steele]

MAS literally stands for MOTU Audio System, all of DP's audio plug in infrastructure is called MAS. So when a VST or AU plug in ties into DP it's going through MAS. You can see this clearly by right clicking DP and selecting Show Package Contents. So DP/Contents/Mac OS/PlugIns/MAS in that folder are MAS VST3 Support.bundle,
MAS AudioUnit Support.bundle, and the MAS VST Support.bundle. What you do not see is a MAS MAS Support.bundle. You see all the included MOTU plug ins as well.

Thanks, Michael. As you might imagine, I knew all of that already. But what I'm saying is that if this is true, then why does BassLine only run in RT, but MODO Bass runs in PG in my example? I'll have to check it out when I have time but have you seen "PG" next to the name of a MOTU plugin in the Audio Performance window? This is what I don't understand.

Also, maybe it was just in the early phase, and I could be wrong here, but I clearly remember a time when I favored the AU of Altiverb many years ago precisely because the AU took advantage of pregen and the MAS version did not. Again... I should look into this more when I have time.

What I'm trying to get across here is MAS can and does support PG in DP's own plug ins...

Again, then I don't understand why I don't see "PG" next to BassLine in the project I was looking at? Is there a bug in the Audio Performance window? I guess a screen shot of the Audio Performance window showing any MOTU plugin with "PG" beside it will put this to rest. I'll test it out when I have time.

[Michael Canavan]

Thanks, Michael. As you might imagine, I knew all of that already. But what I'm saying is that if this is true, then why does BassLine only run in RT, but MODO Bass runs in PG in my example? I'll have to check it out when I have time but have you seen "PG" next to the name of a MOTU plugin in the Audio Performance window? This is what I don't understand.

Also, maybe it was just in the early phase, and I could be wrong here, but I clearly remember a time when I favored the AU of Altiverb many years ago precisely because the AU took advantage of pregen and the MAS version did not. Again... I should look into this more when I have time.

So mostly I love MOTU, but they aren't shall we say, organized well when it comes to implementing things, or even updating their website. I really think their reputation gets hurt by their still advertising MachFive3 as a product in production, it's been very obviously deprecated for at least 8 year or more now. It's nuts really. It's not at all surprising to me they implemented PreGen in their MAS VST and AU support plug ins before doing it with their own. I just opened a project with Model 12, ProVerb, and Proton in it, all running in PG.

Again, then I don't understand why I don't see "PG" next to BassLine in the project I was looking at? Is there a bug in the Audio Performance window? I guess a screen shot of the Audio Performance window showing any MOTU plugin with "PG" beside it will put this to rest. I'll test it out when I have time.

I was under the impression that was from an older project before MOTU fixed their embedded MAS plug ins to support PG? You know this, but plug ins will run in RT if the record button is enabled, if they run in an Aux track, and if they're on the Master fader.

[James Steele]

I just opened a project with Model 12, ProVerb, and Proton in it, all running in PG.

Interesting. I will look into that and check it out. I wonder why I didn't see that with BassLine?

I was under the impression that was from an older project before MOTU fixed their embedded MAS plug ins to support PG? You know this, but plug ins will run in RT if the record button is enabled, if they run in an Aux track, and if they're on the Master fader.

It was originally an old project that was created in a very early version of DP, but I added the instance of BassLine in DP 11.21. But I may have overlooked the record button and I'll check that. That said, I do remember a time when I had to use AU of Altiverb in order to use pregen... the MAS version didn't use it and for a while. It might have been as you say that Audio Ease was just slow to implement it. Might have also been that MOTU hadn't released an SDK that documented how to do that for MAS plugs yet. Such documentation wouldn't have been needed I assume for AU, as it would have to work transparently with Audio Units.

[James Steele]

Well... I do have egg on my face now.

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I must have had BassLine in record mode! It is definitely now showing pregen.

I do, however, stand by my recollection that there was a time when Altiverb MAS would not run in PG, while Altiverb AU, but as you suggested, it was probably because Audio Ease hadn't built in support for it. It would be interesting to see if they've done so by now. I can always launch DP in Rosetta and load up the MAS version of Altiverb and see.

This opens up another topic... I wonder if MOTU has released an updated SDK that documents supporting pregen for Apple Silicon native MAS plug-ins... or just AS-native MAS plug-ins in general. I know lots of people seem to be wanting that for Vienna Ensemble Pro. Vienna is still behind on AS-native support... in all formats.

[Michael Canavan]

Well... I do have egg on my face now.


egg-on-face-egg.jpg



I must have had BassLine in record mode! It is definitely now showing pregen.

I do, however, stand by my recollection that there was a time when Altiverb MAS would not run in PG, while Altiverb AU, but as you suggested, it was probably because Audio Ease hadn't built in support for it. It would be interesting to see if they've done so by now. I can always launch DP in Rosetta and load up the MAS version of Altiverb and see.

This opens up another topic... I wonder if MOTU has released an updated SDK that documents supporting pregen for Apple Silicon native MAS plug-ins... or just AS-native MAS plug-ins in general. I know lots of people seem to be wanting that for Vienna Ensemble Pro. Vienna is still behind on AS-native support... in all formats.

Yeah that all makes sense, and yes even now the MAS version of Altiverb in DP11 on Mojave on the Mac Pro here does not run in PreGen. They are going to have to update Altiverb and hopefully they fix the MAS version but like you mention motu might not have updated the SDK to allow third party instruments to code properly to run in PG.

VEP is super late to the game, honestly it’s a total shame but it is what it is, supposedly an internal beta has been around for a while so it should be sometime in 2023 that we get a native version.

Side note, I really hope they continue to make a MAS version of VEP, Apple Silicon could kill it if VSL are lazy about it..

[James Steele]

Side note, I really hope they continue to make a MAS version of VEP, Apple Silicon could kill it if VSL are lazy about it..

Yeah... I'm guessing this would really burn the guys who have pre-existing projects with instances of the MAS version of VEP. I don't use VEP much since I don't do the sort of projects that would require it, and when I do, I've been using AU just to hedge my bets. I hope they can do it soon. I don't have any insider knowledge, but would be interesting to know if MOTU has made a MAS AS-native SDK available to third party developers. I would think by now that has happened.

Looks like though that Audio Ease is saving AS-native up for a paid upgrade to Altiverb 8, along with new features, so I may need to pony up. I truly hope the upgrade isn't too pricey. Since Altiverb 7 came out there are a whole lot of new, very good options for reverb out there, and if they get too aggressive on the upgrade price, they might lose some folks along the way. If it's too expensive, I may just ride it out with Altiverb 7 until Apple removes Rosetta 2 from MacOS at some future date.

[tremo]

Looks like though that Audio Ease is saving AS-native up for a paid upgrade to Altiverb 8, along with new features, so I may need to pony up. I truly hope the upgrade isn't too pricey. Since Altiverb 7 came out there are a whole lot of new, very good options for reverb out there, and if they get too aggressive on the upgrade price, they might lose some folks along the way. If it's too expensive, I may just ride it out with Altiverb 7 until Apple removes Rosetta 2 from MacOS at some future date.

Just for reference, I looked up my receipt from the Altiverb 6 > 7 upgrade, in 2012: it was $215.

[James Steele]

Just for reference, I looked up my receipt from the Altiverb 6 > 7 upgrade, in 2012: it was $215.

It’s been that long? I can’t remember exactly when upgraded to 7 from 6 but I think it was only a couple of years ago when I upgraded my old MacPro5,1 to Mojave. Not saying it’s not reasonable, but I have a lot more reverb options today so, as I said, I may sit it out and stay with 7 depending on the cost.

[chrisdm1978]

I'm pretty sure MAS never supported pre-gen. Maybe MOTU has figured out a way to do that with their own stock plug-ins (which are now stored inside the DP application bundle). I suppose I could check, but again, pretty sure that was a drawback of using the MAS format: no pregen. Maybe that's changed. It would be interesting to load something like MW Limiter or any of the stock MOTU MAS plugins and see if they will go into "PG" mode.

Hey James,
I just encountered the issue with Altiverb 7.4.7. I figured out how to fix it. The problem is the installer defaults the MAS plugin to be enabled as well as the AU version. When you are in DP native, you can't see the MAS version as it does not show up. Simply go in to Rosetta mode, disable the MAS version of of Altiverb which you will find has been enabled by the installer. Then quit DP. Then go back to Native DP and 7.4.7 is now working on my M1max in Monterey 12.6.3. Problem is the Installer tried to make the MAS one active, must get saved in pref somewhere and when DP tries to run in native it crashes it. But It's working for me since doing as described above.

Cheers,
Chris.

[James Steele]

Thanks for the info. I ended up getting working again. I may have inadvertently done just what you describe, but all is well. What was a mess was the fonts were all jacked up, but that got sorted out. Still, thanks for posting this information. It may not have helped me at this point, but it may help someone else!