Latency Issue on M1 Ultra Mac Studio

[greg328]

Since we’re discussing Mac Studio, I’ve got a Studio Ultra, and the latency is driving me crazy. I’m only running native AS plugs but I have to pull the buffer wayyyy down to get it where I can input note data accurately to the click.

This is especially evident when I’m monitoring my Yamaha Motif XS8 via its SPDIF output. I like to use that so I can have my whole session in the digital domain, but it sure is laggy. If I’m monitoring the Motif via its analog outs, of course no latency at any buffer setting.

When inputting to a VI I still need to run the buffer at 512, sometimes 256 to really reduce latency to an acceptable level.

I’m always looking at the performance meter to assess the overhead on the machine- and it’s really the opposite of what I expected stepping out of my old 5.1 to this new Studio Ultra. The meter is at 50% or higher once latency is acceptable with Motif via its digital out. Running at 256 or even 128 sometimes. Less severe with VIs but still too high in my opinion. Somebody said to expect much better performance at higher buffer settings with the Studio (especially the Ultra) but I’ve not experienced that as of yet!

This is of course only a factor when recording. I raise the buffer to max for playback/mixing and the meter shows nil overhead and everything is snappy and happy.

Mike once suggested it’s my old MTP AV USB interface at fault but I don’t think so. It’s been a workhorse all these years and has never given me trouble.

And remember, I can play/record the Motif monitoring via its analog outs (with local switch off) and hearing only MIDI after DP (not live from Motif keyboard input, but from the MIDI in from DP) and it’s immediate, with no latency. MIDI throughput seems not at fault, but instead all indications point to processor overhead causing this.

My biggest sessions may only have 10-15 MIDI tracks driving 6-8 VIs, the Motif through an AUX, and maybe 4/6 native compressors. Not many audio tracks, maybe 4-8 on most sessions, some mono some stereo.

I run all my time-based, high-processor intensive plugs (reverbs/delays) as UAD2 powered by that hardware (Apollo x8 and the 4-chip UAD TB satellite.). So not that crazy a session, but my tracks can be dense - but that should not matter much in my mind. Piano tracks, string bed tracks can be note-heavy but not ridiculously so.

Would love some suggestions on how to resolve this. I’m 100% certain I’m not opening DP in Rosetta, and I’ve run the Activity Monitor to confirm only Apple software is active. I do find the Activity Monitor is somewhat lacking in that it does not recognize plug-ins currently hosted inside DP.

I’ve checked my plugs against the Sweetwater list of Apple-compatible plug-ins; I’m only using those at the time.

DP 11.21
OS 12,6

Greg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCMarkus]

Since we’re discussing Mac Studio, I’ve got a Studio Ultra, and the latency is driving me crazy. I’m only running native AS plugs but I have to pull the buffer wayyyy down to get it where I can input note data accurately to the click.

This is especially evident when I’m monitoring my Yamaha Motif XS8 via its SPDIF output. I like to use that so I can have my whole session in the digital domain, but it sure is laggy. If I’m monitoring the Motif via its analog outs, of course no latency at any buffer setting.

When inputting to a VI I still need to run the buffer at 512, sometimes 256 to really reduce latency to an acceptable level.

The Mac Studio's performance blows away my 12 Core 5,1. I am able to run the buffer at 128 (probably lower, but happy with 128 responsiveness) with a ton of stuff going. So I just leave it there most of the time.

To be sure you are using only Apple Silicon-Native plugins, get PlugInfo from the App Store ($2.99); it will show you
all your plugins in a jiffy. Really handy.

[greg328]

Thank you HCM, I forgot to mention that I do have that Pluginfo app, everything checks out in that app as AS.
I'm doing a project right now with buffer at 512 and no latency issues with Kontakt 7 and Trilian--low performance meter as well.

I think the problem is slow SPDIF transfer rates, as I monitor my Motif XS8. I'll observe closer and report back here ASAP-

Greg

[mikehalloran]

Mike once suggested it’s my old MTP AV USB interface at fault but I don’t think so. It’s been a workhorse all these years and has never given me trouble.

Like all old MOTU MIDI USB devices, it supports USB 1.1 only. The only way to know it that’s your issue is to try any MIDI interface claiming support for Fast USB 2 and see if that makes a difference.

[greg328]

Mike once suggested it’s my old MTP AV USB interface at fault but I don’t think so. It’s been a workhorse all these years and has never given me trouble.

Like all old MOTU MIDI USB devices, it supports USB 1.1 only. The only way to know it that’s your issue is to try any MIDI interface claiming support for Fast USB 2 and see if that makes a difference.

Mike--thank you for your feedback. Because my MTP AV USB works very snappy when monitoring live MIDI hardware through my Presonus StudioLive mixer, I believe my MIDI interface is not faulty. Even with one VI, say Kontakt 7, or a Spectrasonics title, the session is OK. I have no other MIDI interface to test; if I did I would--But---

My sessions drag down when I start loading up my DP sessions with multiple VIs. Say, 3 or more. They are all AS native. Today I had only one Kontakt 7 instance with 6 instruments loaded in. I had the buffer at 512 and the latency was acceptable but the performance meter was at 50%. This makes no sense for a supposedly awesome Mac Studio Ultra.

I'm also running a little MOTU native plug- MW Leveler, and also (1) UAD2 FX on reverb aux--AMS/RMS 16, and Soundtoys delay on the delay AUX. Those are all native AS. That's it.

It's not the MIDI interface causing my latency, it's the session overhead as proven by my performance meter.

Wish I could trace this issue. I hate having to run smaller-than-necessary buffers to record VIs--I bought this $$ Mac Studio to alleviate latency issues!

By the way, I sent you a PM today regarding upgrading my storage to NVMe. I hope you'll have a chance to respond in the next couple days, because YOU ARE THE MAN when it comes to this sort of advice!

Greg

[James Steele]

I don't know what's going on exactly, but obviously something is very, very wrong. HC Markus has a M1 Ultra Mac Studio and I have the M1 Max Mac Studio, but I know we are both using MOTU audio interfaces... specifically the 828es. I have to wonder if perhaps there is an issue with whatever driver you have to use for the UAD Apollo interface? Does Universal Audio have a newer version perhaps? I wonder if DP has an issue with it? I don't suppose you have Logic Pro or another DAW that you can test with and see if there's a similar performance hit with them?

Also, don't know how monitoring the SPDIF output might affect it. I think you said no lagging with the analog outputs, but SPDIF causes latency? I'm having trouble scrolling back to look at your post while I type this, but seems like something about using SPDIF is creating an issue. Don't suppose you can monitor via analog when tracking and switch to SPDIF when you want to mix and set a higher buffer? I'm sure the sample rate of the Motif's output and your project match? And bit-depth? (Not sure that would make a difference.)

Either way, with the machine you have it shouldn't be necessary. If I lived near you, I'd bring over my 828es (and I guess my TB Satellite OCTO) and hook it up and see what happens, as seems like maybe something is going on with the UA driver? Dunno... spitballing here, sorry. What you're seeing should not be happening. Not like that's much consolation I know.

[greg328]

James-/ your feedback is very interesting thank u. You’ve got me thinking in another direction now. I am on the latest UAD version, and I am using a new Apollo x8.

I do have Logic- great idea to switch over and try that DAW with the Apollo. I’ll have to download it again from the App Store; it’s not currently installed in my new Mac Studio.

Regarding the Motif XS8 and SPDIF, it’s a mystery. I need to have a very small buffer to record a MIDI track of the Motif, if monitoring via digital. I need to go back and double-check but I think printing the Motif digital out after MIDI recording still requires a small buffer or it’ll print late. That’s the whole reason I’m trying to use SPDIF on the Motif so I can be completely digital inside DP.

I’m starting to think broader now. I don’t think SPDIF is necessarily at fault. This is a system-wide limitation that affects any digital processing inside DP. It’s a global CoreAudio issue.

I’ll install and load up a Logic session and see how that behaves.

Thank you all for any feedback. I look forward to solving this and having a truly speedy Mac Studio, someday!
Greg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James Steele]

...and having a truly speedy Mac Studio, someday!

You already have it. Just have to figure how to "unleash the beast!" Something is definitely not right. I hope you can get to the bottom of it.

[Black-Man]

I had the buffer at 512 and the latency was acceptable but the performance meter was at 50%. This makes no sense for a supposedly awesome Mac Studio Ultra.

It's not the MIDI interface causing my latency, it's the session overhead as proven by my performance meter.

Wish I could trace this issue. I hate having to run smaller-than-necessary buffers to record VIs--I bought this $$ Mac Studio to alleviate latency issues!

By the way, I sent you a PM today regarding upgrading my storage to NVMe. I hope you'll have a chance to respond in the next couple days, because YOU ARE THE MAN when it comes to this sort of advice!

Greg

"Performance meter". What exactly does this thing do? I have red-pegged it a few times, so I decided to run activity monitor and top while recording/playback. I use a ton of native plugs and 512 buffer as well.

Funny... the real tools never showed the CPU going above 3% utilization. I even got the dreaded pop-up dialog box "Your CPU is Overloaded... ". 3% CPU utilization is triggering their monitoring tool??

This is a Mac Studio Pro, BTW.

[James Steele]

I'm going to see if I can split off some of these posts into their own topic. It seems to have been... well, I hate using the word... "hijacked" to a degree and now become about some issues. In the future, I'd suggest creating a new topic when you have a separate issue so it will appear in the right place.

... Done.

[Anthropy]

[greg328]

Revisiting an old thread of mine--I'm still dealing with unacceptable latency--with any buffer size, on my Mac Studio Ultra M1, but I've figured out how to cause it: assign/activate a send to a bus.

My latency is barely noticeable when recording (VIs or mic-sourced) and I've got no sends assigned. But, the moment I assign a send to an AUX (using a stereo bus pair), where I park my reverb and delay, WHAM! Instant latency, even at the smallest buffer setting.

So--what gives? Why would this be happening ? Surely the Mac Studio Ultra is powerful enough to deal with an active send or two? My reverbs are UA so the Apollo/UAD-2 Satellite deals with that overhead. My delay is a Soundtoys plug, no big deal.

What I'm forced to do currently is record singers with no FX in their monitor sends. I can only activate seeds to FX when mixing, in order to avoid ridiculous latency.

BTW, I'm totally native now, no Rosetta-inducing plugs are present in my system.

Does not follow logically that I can have several active complex VIs being driven by dense MIDI tracks, with very little latency, but a simple active FX send (even if I bypass that AUX FX) creates huge latency issues.

Would love ideas from you all---surely I'm not the only one experiencing this on the new Mac Studio? (and stop calling me Shirley!! LOL)

Greg

PS--I"m about to test something--a real no-no---insert a time-based effect on a track (versus using sends to auxes) to see if it creates the same issue. Not how to run reverbs/delays but it could help in troubleshooting--

[greg328]

----now it's not doing it. I've got both reverb and delay sends assigned to auxes, (on 2 VIs, same FX sends) and I'm able to record MIDI through VIs with active FX sends at 512 buffer with no latency. So--I'll keep exploring and will keep the thread informed.

Greg

[HCMarkus]

----now it's not doing it. I've got both reverb and delay sends assigned to auxes, (on 2 VIs, same FX sends) and I'm able to record MIDI through VIs with active FX sends at 512 buffer with no latency. So--I'll keep exploring and will keep the thread informed.

Greg

Hi Greg... glad it is working, at least for now.

I never deal with latency when tracking as I do not monitor thru DP; I use my 828ES, which also has a Lexicon reverb attached, so I can give vocalists some "talent" if they want it, also the 828's compression and EQ (all on monitor only, dry source is all that is recorded).

I bet you can do that with your Apollo interface, too. Might want to look into it.

[greg328]

HC yes--you are correct--there is a way to monitor through UA Console--totally bypassing DP--I used to do it several years ago but forgot how! I'm going to explore that method again.

Still--it's frustrating that latency rears its ugly head in the most inopportune moments. I need to get the latency-free monitoring via UA Console up and running again.

You have a similar Mac to mine, correct? You've never experienced crippling latency when recording VIs or mic source material? Even at small buffers--which I understand the powerful new M1 Macs don't even require-?

I relate all this back to my previous MacPro 5.1 3.3ghz machine which, although old, never presented this latency issue!

Greg