Is it OK to upgrade to Big Sur?

[pacificm]

My studio involves working with MOTU/DP, Vienna Ensemble Pro (VEP), a slew of commonly used Virtual instruments (VIs) and 3D production and rendering. In both situations I have one master computer networked with two clients. So, the master is the same for both configurations.

For much of the last year or so I've hesitated upgrading from Mojave to Catalina because of early compatibility issues. Now, I need to upgrade to Big Sur due to a 3D rendering software requirement.

So, my question is whether it is "safe" to upgrade to Big Sur now for MOTU/DP, VEP and most VIs? Is there a site that helps compile this type of thing?

Please advise.

Thanks!

[bayswater]

https://motu.com/en-us/news/motu-and-macos-big-sur/

[cowtothesky]

Nope. Not compatible with Digital Performer (any version) or the audio interfaces.

I would like an update from MOTU on this. I'm hoping they have a patch soon.

[pacificm]

I just came across Sweetwater's Big Sur: Compatibility Guide - https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/ar ... ility-List

It is not very encouraging. It seems like so many of the music apps are not compatible with Big Sur. It poses a particular problem for me because I am doing 3D work along with music on the same machines. The new 3D rendering software requires Big Sur which I'm gearing up for. But, the music software is nowhere near ready yet for Big Sur.

The music software is really holding me back from doing my work.

So, it's not just MOTU. It's many of the softwares that are typically used.

[HCMarkus]

Solution may be dual-boot: have two startup drives/partitions; boot into whichever one you need at a given time. Unless you need to render 3-D while working on music...

[Paratripl]

I terribly bad need to buy a new Mac computer, was going to get the 2020 iMac but I returned it thinking I better jump on the new platform instead of buying into the old one.
Today I’m not sure sure my decision was wise since I figured 3-4 more months (Mars or maybe April) my audio interface (MOTU 828es, which I bought 2 weeks after I had returned the iMac) would be compatible with M1 Macs/Big Sur and maybe even the next batch of Apple Silicon Macs would have been released (bur even if they wouldn’t I would managed quite fine with a M1 Mini) but I’m not so sure anymore.

I understand none except a MOTU knows when and maybe not even them, but if you’d speculate, are we talking a few months or are we talking next year?
In the case of the latter I might need to find an alternative solution.

[pacificm]

If I'm reading you correctly, you've been wrestling with some of the issues I've been wrestling with lately. After hearing about M1 and wanting a M1 iMac, I initially thought I would wait until the M1 iMac came out - rather than getting the 2020 27" iMac. But then, the more I thought about when a M1 iMac would actually be available and fully supported I had second thoughts.

First, there's the actual release date of the first generation - probably at least several months away. Then there's waiting for the release of the second generation of a M1 iMac. (It is generally accepted that first generation of new products are not the best.). Then there is the availability of software that will actually be supported on the M1 iMac.

I listened to countless YouTube videos discussing this topic and they came to a similar conclusion - waiting for a fully supported second generation iMac could easily take up to two years. Whereas the 2020 27" iMac was the "last" and "best" of the Intel versions and is available and supported now. The hair in the ointment here is that Big Sur is not really supported yet by many if not most music software. As many of us have experienced, software upgrades by music companies can take a while. Which brings me to the above suggestion that maybe a dual boot is best for the interim.

We're living in an exciting time of extraordinary desktop equipment and software. The only problem is knowing how to navigate the release of all these technologies and keep our work flow moving at the same time. Hope this helps. Best of luck!

[bayswater]

If raw power is a consideration, I'll add that some people might be overestimating the new Macs. Looking at Geekbench results for the new Mini, it comes in at 7,384. My 2018 Intel Mini is at 6,168. An improvement, but not any different than you'd expect for a new generation Mac, with or without significant new technology.

If longevity is a big issue, things might be different. Maybe the Intel version will be obsolete sooner. But I'll note that my late 2009 iMac and early 2011 MBP still run the latest versions of everything I use except Logic 10.6 and the latest versions of the Pages etc, which need Catalina. Also, that some of the design software I use won't run on BS at all, and might never without expensive updates on my part. The long lag time between hardware and software upgrades on Macs turns out to be a good thing if you have old hardware. If my 2018 Mini is still keeping up with software after 11 years, as the iMac did, I'll be happy.

And FWIW, Apple's strategy here is all about bringing iOS and macOS together, and ending dependence on Intel. Whether it improves things for people doing audio production (a minuscule part of the user base) we have yet to see. For those with a 5K 120 fps video on one monitor and DP running umpteen instances of orchestral VIs on another, the new Silicon Mac Pro will be just the thing, but otherwise?

[mikehalloran]

Big Sur has introduced changes to Time Machine (APFS only) that appear to be incompatible with earlier MacOS running on the same drive. There’s still a lot I don’t know but I’m not liking what I see. I have 4 TM drives but only use 3 so I’ll be playing around with the other to see what does and doesn’t work on the 4th with my and my wife’s machines.

I upgraded my 2012 MBP test machine. Unfortunately, it wiped my Snapshots and I can’t access the Repair Partition so, to roll it back, I had to do a clean install of Catalina — only way I could see my TM backups to do a full restore (18 hours). Ok, my MPB is a test machine and I did that on purpose—now I know. I will likely bring it back to OS 11.1 but will leave TM turned off till I’m ready to update my iMac Pro. I only need one app to run on my MPB and that is Zoom (which works fine) — otherwise, it’s for testing only.

There are a number of tutorials on YouTube re how to install Big Sur onto unsupported Macs like mine. I didn’t find it hard at all. I’ll do it when necessary after all my apps are ready. Hopefully, I’ll have convinced my wife to do this by then as both her Macs are OS 10.11 compatible. If I can make a TM drive handle Big Sur and Catalina on separate APFS Volumes, then it won’t really matter when I upgrade her Macs—if ever.

[bayswater]

Big Sur has introduced changes to Time Machine (APFS only) that appear to be incompatible with earlier MacOS running on the same drive. There’s still a lot I don’t know but I’m not liking what I see. I have 4 TM drives but only use 3 so I’ll be playing around with the other to see what does and doesn’t work on the 4th with my and my wife’s machines.

This is not encouraging. On one spot, I have four Macs running BS (one of them) and HS (the other three). One of the HS is not APFS. All backing up to drive in an AirPort Extreme. When I updated the first to BS from Catalina, it kept running TM as usual, and I've done one file restore from it, as well as a restore to one of the Macs running HS. All seems fine so far. Is the problem you noted specific to restoring data from systems earlier than BS to a drive under BS? That would not be an issue for me since all these Macs are standalone, other than the Wifi network and TM volume they use.

I've also noticed that Mojave now complains about "incompatible features" on a drive on my Mini. The only new drive is the volume I created to do a BS test. I've never noticed one version of an OS to complain about something associated with the presence of another version. But I did find both Catalina and BS are intrusive, attempting to alter libraries created by other OS versions on volumes other than the one used to start them up.

[Paratripl]

Yes thank you. It’s helpful.

I know I made a mistake sending back the 2020 27” iMac now, I was however stressed almost all my awake hours due to decision anxiety regarding keeping it returning and when I returned it I was so relieved (until TNT messed up the delivery by merging the two packets to one and then claiming they only picked up one of the packets they were going to return to Apple and not the iMac.. I did have the signature for it though so wasn’t that worried) but what made me return it was mostly the about the resell value or more specific the fear of not having enough money to buy an Apple Silicon Mac.
I had in the same era I had lost my day job and money from music isn’t enough for a new computer unless I save up during 3-5 years due to the Macs being a lot more expensive in my country than other European countries.

Maybe I should place an order for a new iMac with similar specs but it’s hard, I’d say it’s like admitting my mistake if it wasn’t for the fact that I rarely have an issue admitting my wrongdoings, I guess it’s the fact that I returned the AirPods I got in their back to school campaign that makes me feel like I’m losing money but I know it’s silly (but I do need new AirPods, so it’s still nagging me a bit) though I might also not get their education price anymore because I studied a brief period. Enough with the psychologist-talk.

I bought the iMac due to not really really needing the mobility but I also felt when I had the iMac that it would be nice to have a mobile computer if it wasn’t due the fact that the intel Mac laptops sounds as an airplane taking off as soon as their plugged in to an external monitor.
Regarding performance I rarely max out what I’ve got during audio work (I’m also doing some 3D-modeling, also as a hobby) but it’s nice to have some headroom of course.
I do however think I’ll go with a laptop when I buy a new computer but probably not the M1’s that’s available now but maybe M1X or preferably M2 but a bit worried I confused my wants and hopes with what I’m expecting regarding when the next batch of AS Macs will come. I thought March was very likely (I mean Apple has been working on ARM-chips for a decade now and on the M1 computers for years and I figured they wanted to release the low end computers so that companies got their software ready and as soon as they’ve made some fine tuning and people have bought the M1 Macs and did the extensive testing they’d release the next couple of mid-level performance computers and make some more money when a lot of the same people but the new ones.. etc) but now I realize that it’s very unlike Apple and more something I would wish.
I do however believe the M1 Macs was released first because they wanted developers to feel the heat to get their software done, to be assured that eventual issues would be worked out until the “real” release and to show what they can do with very low level W chips. I’ve totally lost the thread here. Sorry.
I think I was going to ask do you really think I should go on and get an iMac again, even if my current plan is to wait for the higher end 13/14” or base level 16” Apple Silicon whenever they’re released? As I said, I don’t need the mobility but I’d prefer it (I’d probably have gone for the current 16” if it wasn’t for the issues been connected to an external screen though). Just as I don’t (think) that I need all the power from the 27” high end iMac but I prefer the headroom it offers.

I was thinking about servicing/changing my current 15” MBP’s battery and have it cleaned to hopefully make it last 6 more months. Will have to do that if I want to sell it which I probably only will do if I get another laptop.

Sorry this became long and a large bit unrelated. Tried shorting it down but that just made it longer. Sorry.

[pacificm]

I wanted to take the opportunity to thank the above person for suggesting dual-boot as a solution to my 3D Rendering/Music production dilemma. When my new iMac arrives it will be pre-loaded with Big Sur which I will use in my 3D rendering.

I will also create a partition in the iMac and load Catalina for my music production and use it until such time that Big Sur is supported for music production. As I mentioned above, I currently have a networked music production configuration with a master Mac and two Mac clients. I'm using Vienna Ensemble Pro to coordinate the networking of the three computers and so far it has worked very well.

At the moment, all three computers are loaded with Mojave, which I will need to upgrade to Catalina. I'm consulting the Sweetwater Catalina Compatibility Guide to help assure a smooth upgrade transition - https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/ar ... ility-list.

Before, I do the upgrade from Mojave to Catalina, are there any other considerations I should make before beginning the upgrade?

Please advise.

Thanks!

[HCMarkus]

I guess I would just ask, why do you need Catalina?

I'm still running a 2010 5,1 Mac Pro (with an identical backup machine), and moving beyond Catalina would require running Open Core or another patch. For that reason, I haven't explored gong beyond Mojave on my machines. What compels the move to Catalina for you, and if so, are the reasons extraneous to running a solid recording studio machine?

[mikehalloran]

A 2020 iMac will come pre-loaded with Catalina; a 2019 from the Refurb Store should have Mojave and an iMac Pro will be loaded with High Sierra (as mine was last October).

For the 2020 and the iMP, you will need to change the Security settings in the Repair Partition before the T2 chip will allow you to dual-boot from an external drive. Easily done. If you don't know how, I have those instructions here and can post them.

[pacificm]

I called Apple. They informed me that the new iMac would have Big Sur installed. Which is fine for the 3D side of things.

I asked about the other boot side to support the music software. I mentioned that my current machines all have Mojave. Apple said it would be no problem to put Mojave on the other boot side of the new iMac.

Once again, I wanted to thank you for your advice. Since I know that all of the music software already works fine with Mojave, there is no reason to update the other machines to Catalina after all. That should save me some work and headaches.

Thanks!