Nashville & Percussion libs (EZDrummer and alternatives)

[mhschmieder]

Yeah, I thought the inclusion of that grunge tune was a mistake, until I noticed there were congas in the mix.

It's definitely more Brasilian-oriented, but as I said, due to the Bahia scene and the common heritages of much of Cuba's music with that of Salvador Brasil and West Africa, many times people take "Afro-Cuban" to include ALL of the percussion from those three main areas, which isn't generally very helpful as they have unique traditions, usages, and contexts.

For instance, the Brasilian scene (especially in Bahia) seems to focus around street music, and the instruments thus are designed to carry well outdoors but don't always work well in a club setting. Nevertheless, those instruments are important to get that authentic sound; even for folklorica (I use the surdo to accompany Andean music that I write and/or transcribe/record).

It was kind of late when I listened to those demos, and I only quickly browsed them without listening all the way through. I mostly was trying to ascertain whether the instruments had been pitched correctly, and was curious whether the surdo was missing from the demos or whether that really was a surdo I was hearing and which I assumed must have instead been a tumbadora. Thanks for clearing that up.

I guess I'll just keep waiting, skip the EZDrummer, Q-Up Arts and SONiVOX MI stuff, and use the Brasilian elements from the GM drum kit in Goliath (and a few one-offs in Kontakt 3) for now.

I'll take another look at what's in the Extended Edition of VSL Percussion as well, as those don't show up in my Vienna Instruments patch browser (I didn't realise you have to specifically request the Extended demo license and that it isn't automatic when you purchase the Standard library).

[monkey man]

Mark, if I remember correctly you used to use the Latin Percussion board in a Motif (ES Rack?).
I'm curious as to how you think the XS percussion, which cannot be augmented by PLG boards, compares.
I realise you might not have heard much (if any) of the XS percussion set, but I respect your opinion on matters of sound quality and so couldn't resist asking here.

Secondly, just how much worse is the XS (or ES, if that's all you've heard) percussion set than the typical HQ VI offering?
FWIW, I'm still trying to justify persisting with the "OB MIDI mixed in DP" option now that MOTU still hasn't delivered in the VI department (IMHO).
I figure I'll ditch OB MIDI as DP introduces viable alternatives, but still can't bring myself to trust 3rd parties enough to justify selling MIDI hardware.

Lastly, I'm considering ditching my XV-5080 (unexpanded) for a MOTIF XS rack, given that the Roland is frankly unexciting and uninspiring to me (I've heard the board demos, and they sound like more of the same, albeit a little more acceptable).
Does this approach and indeed option sound reasonable (I've only heard online MP3 demos of the Yamaha).
Further to this, should the MOTIF turn out to be perfect for me, just how crazy does running more than one (due to the limited outs - 2 stereo pairs) sound to you?
I like to run all MIDI live and not have to render individual tracks, FWIW.
I'd also like to apply DP's new 'verb to as many sounds as possible (stereo pairs?).

Any thoughts shared will be gold for the Monkster, Mark.

[mhschmieder]

Well, I wasn't too keen on the drums and percussion in the Motif ES or Motif Classic series (and especially not in my CS6x), but as mentioned earlier, found the PLG150-PC board based on Q-Up Arts' Latin Groove Factory to be of phenomenal quality (and only $110!). It really does hold up to software equivalents, but my recollection is that I sold it because I found that the raw samples weren't dry enough, so I felt long-term the software route was advisable -- I just didn't expect to have so many problems with Ethno and then later on to end up with gaps in coverage after going the BFD route.

As far as Motif XS is concerned, I hope to decide on the XS Rack very soon. I am taking time to back-port some of my favourite Motif patches to the CS6x, but as the CS6x editor is Windows-only this means I can only perform this task on my work computer, and that is too time-consuming a task to be able to do even on nights when I'm working late, so I may not make much progress there. Anyway, the goal is to see whether I can back-port enough to not feel the need for the XS Rack for live use, as I feel convinced I would not make much use of it in the studio due to having so many excellent sound sources now from Scarbee, Pianoteq, Vienna Instruments, B.F.D., et al.

I've heard the Motif XS drums are excellent (and though I rarely care about drums in a hardware unit, the little auditioning that I did of them in the store was quite impressive in terms of dynamics and expression, compared to earlier Motif models), but I'm not sure if the latin and Brasilian percussion got an overhaul as well. For all I know, some of the Q-Up Arts material may have been folded into the Motif XS series. Yamaha has been known to do stuff like that in the past.

[monkey man]

Thank you for all that, Mark.

I can't help but look at the rack 'cause it'll be cheap enough to virtually do a straight swap with the Roland.

[EDIT: Prelim info that followed deleted.]

Hopefully David stumbles across this thread; he's been around lately.

[mhschmieder]

I stumbled across those brand-new posts yesterday as well, and printed them out for deeper study. My experiments with programming favourite Motif patches (weird stuff, not "natural" instruments like brass) onto the CS6x were less than successful due to the waveforms present, so it's now pretty clear to me that CS6x voices can port forward but many Motif voices cannot port backwards. I've played enough with the two voice editors side by side now to feel VERY comfortable porting voices, as the architecture is almost identical (for the ES series -- the XS opens up whole new possibilities).

This is WAY off-topic by now, so that's all I'm going to say on the subject.

Relevant to drums and percussion, however, there are certain aspects of the Motif XS architecture that up the ante considerably vis a vis external hardware with ready-to-go sounds, and the lower end of the software drums/percussion market (such as EZDrummer). The level of expressivity and realistic phrasing that the Motif XS makes possible, definitely puts a challenge to all but the top-tier of software-based solutions for drums, guitars, etc.

[monkey man]

Gee, thank you for your thoughts Mark.

I hope the jump in realism for drums translates somewhat for percussion too.
I've a TD-20 brain for drums and I'm satisfied that it sounds good enough to get the job done.
Unfortunately I can't say the same for its percussion set, so an XS would be taking on those duties as well as general instrument duties (brass, keys/piano, synth sounds, strings and SFX mainly).

Glad you stumbled upon that additional MOTIF info too; I'll delete it from the thread now.
Again, thank you for your thoughts Mark.

OK, there's nothing to see here 'Cornies... carry on...

[mhschmieder]

As I mentioned in the Pianoteq Group Buy thread, I went through the waveform list for the Motif XS last night and compared it to previous models (including the CS6x that I currently use), and there is about an eight-fold increase in the number of drum samples. I remember now that Dave told me that was one of their strong pushes to improve the drums, and though I don't think I would personally substitute a live drummer on stage with workstation drums, it certainly doesn't hurt to have good ones available (and presumably they have the studio musician more in mind). I'll try to remember to audition them in the next day or so when I return for some followup on the XS before finalising my pre-order for the rack edition.

There are surdo samples in the XS, as well as pandeiro and other Brasilian percussion, alongside more articulations for congas and bongos, etc. If the resolution is good enough to blend well with high-end sample libraries in the context of a mix, I have nothing against using hardware sources for such sounds -- as long as they can be captured dry and effected later.

[monkey man]

Thank you again, Mark.

That percussion info is very exciting to me, mainly because I've never had a decent conga set even though they're my fave percussive instruments.

Think D4, DM Pro and Roland JV/XV stock sounds.
The DM Pro's in particular sounded like cardboard boxes being slapped, to my ears at least.
The TD's conga samples have audible truncation and no performance dynamics (layering or even velocity-responsive pitch-changing), a great disappointment in a $4000 AU module.

Again, thank you for that, and good luck with that rack; I heard there was to be a delay (due to demand?).

[mhschmieder]

The drums and percussion (congas, bongos, especially) on the Motif XS are pretty phenomenal and definitely belie the more complex architecture in the XS supporting more realistic articulations and phrasing.

I was less successful in convincing myself I like the XS though, due to a combination of horrible headphones at the mom+pop store (quieter environment at least than Guitar Centre) and the fact that all of the presets are soaking in reverb (I tried to turn off master Effects but didn't find how to do that in the short amount of time I had available). The drums and percussion didn't seem quite as over-effected as the regular voices.

There is another percussion library that I saw reviewed in Virtual Instruments (May 2008 issue), but it doesn't have sufficient coverage of latin and Brasilian percussion to warrant mentioning in the context of this thread. It's more cinematic in its focus, with ambient stuff mostly.

[monkey man]

Well, from the low-quality muck I've been using to "phenomenal" sounds like a jump of inspirational proportion to me.
That fact alone (the percussion quality) practically justifies acquiring the unit.

Thank you Mark.

[kordta]

Hi,

I think the EZ nashville sounds pretty good, but is a "modern" Nashville sound (kinda like KitCore mentioned below). Not quite the '30s vibe.

Just an idea, but if you want Nashville and Latin sounds, you might check out KitCore Deluxe. Pretty inexpensive, and includes Luis Conte's latin percussion and Lonnie Wilson's kit with stick, brushes and blastix recorded at (strangely enough ;^>) the same studio as the EZ expansion kit.

This is an old thread, but saw the question and figured I'd respond.

Cheers,

--kT

[mhschmieder]

I think that's the U.K. produced suite, highly affordable, that I checked out last summer, but I'll have to recheck that. If so, I felt the resolution wasn't there, but that it was excellent value and a good starter kit.

[monkey man]

Believe it or not, I've found the percussion in the Yamaha Motif workstations to be pretty darn good.

I'm going to take that comment to bed tonight, Mark. Yay! Starting to get excited about my future Motif rack(s). This is a very good thing, IMHO, as I've honestly not been inspired by the sounds of my gear since the WSSR and JD-990 days. It's much belated, but thank you!

I think, given the description of "Nashville", it's just a Ludwig-based kit. I could probably use "Fab Four" or something pieced together using B.F.D. to cover the country genre . I just figured it might save me time if someone who knew country music had already put together an appropriately matches-and-voiced kit. But now that I understand what EZDrummer is about, I realise it wouldn't save me time vs. just researching (and listening) on my own to put together a nice template kit for country.

FWIMBW Mark, when I first saw this thread I was tempted to suggest that one might simply dampen the toms and snare somewhat in order to create a "country" vibe. After all, from my very limited exposure to the genre it does seem to me that longer decays, especially on snares, would interfere with the generally-open-sounding mixes (for want of a better description) of country. IMHO, the general prevalence of acoustic instruments in country mixes may well be swamped or interfered with by more sustained kit components. Just an impression I get, for whatever it might be worth.

Of course, the modern shift towards an ever-increasing rock influence probably blows my theory out of the water, as might be the case where much space is available such as in ballads, but I do think that controlling decay rates, even on a typically standard kit, might be key to getting that country "vibe".

...I owned the Yamaha PLG150-PC form factor of that library for awhile, and sold it when I bought MOTU Ethno...

I had been thinking of looking into what formats are available for the Q-Up Arts Latin Groove Factory (as I think it is called), but was hoping for a more modern solution, as stuff from that era usually takes a lot of work to make usable (something that Yamaha already did when they made the PLG card based on that library). For one thing, there's no scripting, and many times one even has to do all the key mappings from raw audio!

I well remember your fondness for that card's "Latin" percussion set, Mark, and your mentioning it reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask you again in the Motif thread, but it's close enough to the direction the thread has taken, so here goes:
Did Yamaha manage to improve on or at least get near to this standard with the XS (rack?), given that the PLG paradigm has been dropped? I've always preferred "Latin"-styled percussion instruments for pop etc, and considering the vast (from my perspective anyway) number of sets you've auditioned and used, I truly value your observations here.

I realise I asked you this a few months ago, but you'd only been able to audition the XS rack at a noisy store with headphones at that point, and weren't even sure you'd be buying one I think. You've now had a chance to hear the beastie properly at home, so I just had to ask. Please forgive me.

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