Bring back the Loop tool in DP 10.11

[bayswater]

Inherently DP is weird when it comes to having Tracks and Sequence views of the timeline,

I don't think DP is so unusual in this. Other DAWs have a summary view and full view, like Cubase, and Mixbus. Some have Windows for setting up sequence parameters other than the timeline and and arrangement. For me the Track window, which was called the Track overview earlier, and was once the only sequence window, serves both these purposes. What I find unusual is that people still use it as an editor rather than a high level overview and setup screen (as the DP 10 manual suggests), although many long term users seem to do that.

[spitfire31]

Bayswater wrote: "What I find unusual is that people still use it as an editor rather than a high level overview and setup screen (as the DP 10 manual suggests), although many long term users seem to do that."
I guess I'm a long term user, then (Performer v.1 on a blue (?) floppy). And yes, I have (used to have?) a habit of using the Track overview as a handy macro editor, opening Sequence for detailed work, of course.

[Michael Canavan]

Inherently DP is weird when it comes to having Tracks and Sequence views of the timeline,

I don't think DP is so unusual in this. Other DAWs have a summary view and full view, like Cubase, and Mixbus. Some have Windows for setting up sequence parameters other than the timeline and and arrangement. For me the Track window, which was called the Track overview earlier, and was once the only sequence window, serves both these purposes. What I find unusual is that people still use it as an editor rather than a high level overview and setup screen (as the DP 10 manual suggests), although many long term users seem to do that.

Even in the webinars Matt mainly uses the Tracks. Danny Elfmans main helper showed us the score editors and only the Tracks overview, never really saw the Sequence. It really is different than all the examples you mentioned. Tracks is much more cohesive to work in than the Sequence, especially for MIDI. DP10's improvements in how MIDI is shown in the Sequence editor, as well as Clips being easy to digest visually is a big improvement, but in many ways the Sequence editor is exactly that, an editor. mostly for track automation and audio editing etc. Now also for looping.
A typical way to work for me has always been to record into the Tracks view, select and open the needed editor if editing is needed, then use markers etc. to rearrange the song if needed. I stay MIDI for as long as possible, and that's probably why people would choose one over the other, it's pretty easy to use selections to open up editors in the Tracks VS the free range MIDI in the Sequence Editor.

Use 5+ DAWs over the years, DP's capabilities timeline wise has a vastly more complicatedly split between Tracks and Sequence. Compared to Live, Logic, etc. etc. it's a different kind of beast. I literally have never seen a screenshot of 24+ tracks in the Sequence, but that relatively normal track count it's starting to look ungainly, whereas the Tracks View is perfectly capable of giving a clear view of 40 odd tracks.

One of the downsides to Clips is having to deal with more switching between the two views for me because of the lack of looping in the Tracks. I becomes even more extreme, and personally Sequence has always been a mess for editing with completely free range un-parsed MIDI. So obviously I would respectively disagree that we are only to use the Tracks view as an overview at times, but now we're split even further between fast selecting, big edits etc. in the Tracks and automation, looping, audio editing in the Sequence.

[bayswater]

Tracks is much more cohesive to work in than the Sequence, especially for MIDI.

I don't know what that means. If you're saying Track is better for MIDI than the SE, that may be, but I've always used the MIDI editor for MIDI. Now that Clips exist, using the MIDI editor for the actual MIDI and the Clips editor for region editing, all is well.

[Michael Canavan]

Tracks is much more cohesive to work in than the Sequence, especially for MIDI.

I don't know what that means. If you're saying Track is better for MIDI than the SE, that may be, but I've always used the MIDI editor for MIDI. Now that Clips exist, using the MIDI editor for the actual MIDI and the Clips editor for region editing, all is well.

Selecting MIDI in the Sequence editor is a PITA with free range MIDI compared to parsed MIDI in the Tracks window. The new smart feature of DP 10.11 to show the MIDI in the tracks helps, but parsed or object oriented MIDI has always been easier to move etc. with a mouse.

DP is in a weird halfway stage, it's hard for me to imagine that it stays the way it is right now. Two MIDI editing windows, no access to the Drum editor for Clips etc. I hope the next updates or upgrade smooths this out a bit..

[bayswater]

Selecting MIDI in the Sequence editor is a PITA with free range MIDI compared to parsed MIDI in the Tracks window.

Yes, that I would never do.

[Phil O]

Going to completely disagree with everyone here. It's two new key commands to learn, Pack into Clips and Unpack Clips. After that nothing about using Clips as loops is less intuitive or lacks in features compared to the Loop Tool, which visually was always a mess.

The way I used the loop function cannot (to the best of my knowledge) be duplicated with clips. I would start with an infinite loop as a click track and then after recording the initial track of the song, I'd simply adjust numbers in the event window to line up with the whole track or sometimes portions of the track ( verse, chorus, etc.). Tough to explain without going into detail, but you just can't get that simple functionality with clips.

Your friendly neighborhood Phil

[Michael Canavan]

Going to completely disagree with everyone here. It's two new key commands to learn, Pack into Clips and Unpack Clips. After that nothing about using Clips as loops is less intuitive or lacks in features compared to the Loop Tool, which visually was always a mess.

The way I used the loop function cannot (to the best of my knowledge) be duplicated with clips. I would start with an infinite loop as a click track and then after recording the initial track of the song, I'd simply adjust numbers in the event window to line up with the whole track or sometimes portions of the track ( verse, chorus, etc.). Tough to explain without going into detail, but you just can't get that simple functionality with clips.

Your friendly neighborhood Phil

You can, in fact it's not that hard at all. The only function I think is different in this is placement. Also for some reason infinite looping isn't in DP10, but who loops pat 1000 bars? It's easy enough to zoom out and drag a clip to 1000 bars. copying and looping with Clips really is better in most ways, it's visually easier to identify, if you unpack a looped clip it instantly turns to real copies, it's not calling up a dialog box every time you want to change loop length.
IMO the only "missing" thing is infinite looping. Logic has a slight advantage there, in that loops can be instantly infinitely looped, they end at the next MIDI object etc. and all MIDI is editable in the same MDII editor.

[richhickey]

Going to completely disagree with everyone here. It's two new key commands to learn, Pack into Clips and Unpack Clips. After that nothing about using Clips as loops is less intuitive or lacks in features compared to the Loop Tool, which visually was always a mess.

The way I used the loop function cannot (to the best of my knowledge) be duplicated with clips. I would start with an infinite loop as a click track and then after recording the initial track of the song, I'd simply adjust numbers in the event window to line up with the whole track or sometimes portions of the track ( verse, chorus, etc.). Tough to explain without going into detail, but you just can't get that simple functionality with clips.

Your friendly neighborhood Phil

Precisely, that's how I used it too, and what I miss.

Now the only infinite loop we have is this thread

(queue another post claiming duplicating n times is the same as/as good as looping...)

[Michael Canavan]

Precisely, that's how I used it too, and what I miss.

Now the only infinite loop we have is this thread

(queue another post claiming duplicating n times is the same as/as good as looping...)

So you're not getting it if you think I was talking duplicating. You have loops in DP still, in the form of Clips, if you refuse to use, or learn to use Clips, then you do not have looping.

What drives me nuts and apologies for singling you out, is that it's literally the same amount of time to pack to Clip, drag loop to next item etc. as it is to hit a key command which instantiates a pop up menu that you then click on to call up infinite looping.

Plus, since other DAWs like Logic have infinite looping with object oriented MIDI and Audio, it's very possible that requests to MOTU will get it in DP. What will not happen, and I have no doubt about this, is for MOTU to take free range MIDI and reinstate the old looping function, it's just not going to happen. They're obviously going in the same direction all other DAWs are going in, and IMO we're lucky they didn't just do away with MIDI that isn't tied to Clips.

I'm going to predict this right now. In less than 5 years all of you will be in agreement with me on this, you're stuck in your ways, this is not a situation where the old way was better, it's just what you're used to, period. Old dog new tricks etc.

[richhickey]

Precisely, that's how I used it too, and what I miss.

Now the only infinite loop we have is this thread

(queue another post claiming duplicating n times is the same as/as good as looping...)

So you're not getting it if you think I was talking duplicating. You have loops in DP still, in the form of Clips, if you refuse to use, or learn to use Clips, then you do not have looping.

What drives me nuts and apologies for singling you out, is that it's literally the same amount of time to pack to Clip, drag loop to next item etc. as it is to hit a key command which instantiates a pop up menu that you then click on to call up infinite looping.

Plus, since other DAWs like Logic have infinite looping with object oriented MIDI and Audio, it's very possible that requests to MOTU will get it in DP. What will not happen, and I have no doubt about this, is for MOTU to take free range MIDI and reinstate the old looping function, it's just not going to happen. They're obviously going in the same direction all other DAWs are going in, and IMO we're lucky they didn't just do away with MIDI that isn't tied to Clips.

I'm going to predict this right now. In less than 5 years all of you will be in agreement with me on this, you're stuck in your ways, this is not a situation where the old way was better, it's just what you're used to, period. Old dog new tricks etc.

How the heck do you know what I'm used to?

I have been using sequencers and DAWs (including Performer) since the 80s. I own and have used most DAWs and know what they can and can't do. I don't need to learn to use clips - I own Ableton Live and Push 2, and Maschine, and Bitwig, as well as Studio One and Logic and Cubase . But please post the exact same opinion again in this thread since you insist on being last and 'right'.

A feature existed and was removed. That's a fact. That you think clips are equivalent is your opinion. I don't need 5 more years to agree with your opinion, I've formed my own in 35 years of working with computers, MIDI and music.

We are lucky that DP doesn't yet have only clip-and-rectangle-oriented MIDI like Ableton Live. When it does I will have precisely zero reason to use it.

[Michael Canavan]

We are lucky that DP doesn't yet have only clip-and-rectangle-oriented MIDI like Ableton Live. When it does I will have precisely zero reason to use it.

I can think of multiple reasons to use DP, but now I understand why you hate the new way looping works.
I just have an entirely different opinion than yours on this, if you can't handle that then I suggest you don't post on music forums.

IMO DP has suffered for years because it's got an audience of older musicians that hate change. I'm glad MOTU had the balls to add in Clips and Looping object oriented MIDI, because they had to know that a lot of their customers would be upset. I'm also glad that they kept the ability to have MIDI outside of Clips. We're looking at a DAW that does both, it's very powerful and what are we losing? Missing so far, infinite MIDI/audio, the ability to loop unpacked MIDI and Audio, which is flatly to be expected.

We who do not program DAWs all act like all of this is just super easy. I have my reservations, I don't like that Clips are treated differently, no Drum, Graphic etc. Editors for them etc. It all could have (in my mind) been integrated at a deeper level.... and that's the gist, in my mind, I don't know how hard it is to add in Clips to the Drum Editor? I don't know if infinite looping of Clips caused some other issue, and might be addressed later? I do know that I like the direction DP is going in, and if I didn't I would use one of the other 5 DAWs on my system. I'm not upset at the direction MOTU is going in, and I think it's a good idea to look at how you work, and how much this direction is actually affecting you. It took me a few minutes to adjust, add in a key command to unpack Clips and we're done.

[italodisco]

I've been using DP since it was just P, I think I started in 1988. I use it and also use Ableton, Logic, Reaktor and tons of other DAW. My workflow is flexible. I've done some development with DAWs and synth mfgs. I earn my living from music. The point is I'm not coming on here after not RTFM to bash software I'm new to.

It was ridiculous to remove something so basic as Insert Loop. Yeah it's just one little feature but it's so basic. They could have kept it and implemented their new Abletonesque clip scheme.

Removing such an elemental thing is almost a metaphor...seriously, I sometimes feel like MOTU is begging for users to leave.

Half the bugs I've had over the years with DP I've documented in video and their support couldn't fix it. Serious ••••, like L and R going out of phase in stereo files until you zapped Bundles and made new ones, totally replicable on multiple systems with different interfaces, OS, etc. Errors with nudging confirmed by people on here. These bugs would persist version after version and and MOTU would do an update and have 5 new virtual guitar pedals. And now they got rid of looping regions...for a new, half-baked (still, in late 2020) workflow.

When I used to work with the (recently discontinued) biggest electronic music education series (associated with a popular energy drink named after a scarlet taurus), year after year, not one of the younger participants would know Digital Performer. And I'm starting to get why. It's the Quark XPress of DAWs. I'm a older guy and I feel like this is old guy software at this point.

Writing this after spending 30 minutes trying to figure out how to loop a f*$&%(g clip infinitely. I know a lot of people on here will disagree with me...pack yourself into a clip and have at it!

[Phil O]

I think there's one thing you clearly can't do with clips that you can do with looping, and unfortunately it's the way I use to use looping.

I hate simple click tracks and I find I can get a better performance from someone with some sort of simple groove. Sometimes it's still simple, but if I tailor it to the song it gives the musician a better foundation to play to, especially at the beginning of tracking an overdub project. So, I start with a one or two measure percussion groove using the Drum Editor, make a selection and set it to infinite loop if there are no charts. (If there are charts I already know the number of measures and I can set the loop number.) Once through the tune with a scratch track and I can set the loop number, put in all my markers, etc.

At this point I could have done all this with clips. Agreed. But, here's where loops was so much easier. When it comes time for a subsequent track a musician may request something different. "Can you give me the 16th note subdivisions with that? Maybe on a shaker?" With loops all I have to do is go into the Drum Editor and add a shaker. Takes about 30 seconds. With clips I have to unpack make changes repack and resize. Not a dealbreaker, but it's still more time consuming.

JMHO
Your friendly neighborhood Phil

[Michael Canavan]

With loops all I have to do is go into the Drum Editor and add a shaker. Takes about 30 seconds. With clips I have to unpack make changes repack and resize. Not a dealbreaker, but it's still more time consuming.

Yep, I don't mind Clips but they really should integrate better into DP than they do. They should work in the Drum editor, MIDI editor, and Tracks, you should be able to infinite loop them. I think it would be cool to have a command that does what the old loop tool did with clips, something like "Pack into Clips, loop X amount of times". All of this would make the experience that much faster and better.