The question of Monitors...

Here's where to talk about preamps, cables, microphones, monitors, etc.

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Here's where to talk about preamps, cables, microphones, monitors, etc.
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grimepoch
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Post by grimepoch »

Will definitely try and solve this problem first without any equalizer introduction into the setup.

What I have now is my signal comes out of the 896 into the Presonus control station thing. Then, I have my Tannoy Active Reveals hooked up ot output A and my sub hooked to output C.

There are no controls on the Tannoy's at all. And I can adjust the Sub volume, but not it's crossover frequency. It's fixed. Of course, this is going to be the first thing I replace. My sub is still lacking in the response I want (doesn't go deep enough).

There are some trim settings on the presonus piece, so I am going to do some looking into how those exactly work. It sounds as if they are filtering something, and I know that doesn't entirely make sense, but I hear it when I turn them. This disturbs me a bit.

Do most people use a sub in their monitors? My tannoy's go down to only 75hz I believe (these are about 4 years old). Before using a sub, I had so little deep response my mixes ALL came out too bassy. Or do people use monitors that inherently have better bass response? (Like the Mackie 824s or whatever they are called).

I certainly agree that using too good of equipment isn't going to be realistic out in the real world. That problem I know is just a part of the process. My goal right now is to understand my room acoustics and then account for them. While my old method of listening to songs I knew and adjusting the response worked somewhat, those songs didn't always cover the entire frequency range. So while I'd think my bass was right, and then I'd mix. I'd find out that maybe the frequency I was using was dead in my listening position and when I played it back in other locations, the bass was deafining! :)

Beyond all that, this is going to be a good learning experience about room acoustics. It's something I've never really put a lot of effort into and I am thinking by putting the effort into it, my mixing skills will get better.

In any case, thanks for the massive amounts of input. Hopefully this is enough now to keep me busy for awhile :)
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grimepoch
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As promised, an update...

Post by grimepoch »

So, I purchased fuzzMeasure and the ECM8000 from Behringer. For the first three hours or more, I adjusted the trim and levels of my system. Specifically, my central station allows me to adjust the levels of the left, right, tannoys and the sony sub I am using at the moment.

First thing I noticed, the response of the sub is NOT very flat at all, this will be certainly the first piece getting the kick (no pun intended...okay, well maybe) in the near future.

After moving the sub around a bit, and adjusting the levels and positions of all the speakers, I just couldn't get it any better. I had some definite bumps in the spectrum.

So, even though I didn't want to, I took my Ultra-Curve pro and put it just before the central station. It's a digital piece so I believe the parameteric EQ doesn't add in any phase distortion. Of course, I am sure there is now some extra digitally added degradation. In simple, it's 96k/24 bit, and uses 40-bit internal processing.

I spent another three hours carefully measuring the system and adding parametric EQs to the processing. I went away, came back, multiple times.

Today, after some additional fine tuning, I have to say, I am hearing stuff in music that I never knew was there! I listened to some mixes that didn't sound good here, and sure enough, they sounded bad here now as well. While I've not gone through the process yet of testing this fully, I can say that so far, it has been a tremendous step in at least hearing everything.

So if some people are thinking about going through this, I recommend it, or some form of it. It's like I just added 150hp to my studio :)

One thing that I did notice, since I do mostly dance music, is that people and clubs tend to use what I call the U curve in their systems. Meaning, the bass is cranked, the tremble is cranked, and everything in the middle is about normal.

Do studios listen in this situation as well? Is this something I should check in the studio as well? One of the beauties of the Ultra-Curve pro is there is a graphic EQ as well in line that is easy to turn on and off. Should I even worry about testing with other EQ settings beyond my flat response now?

Last but not least, in my studio room is pretty big, would it be wise to replace some of the ceiling tiles (drop ceiling) with acoustic foam and diffusers? Something I've been thinking about.
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paradeatw
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Post by paradeatw »

learn how mixes sound on your system... learn how your system sounds in your room... there are plenty of pro's out there who bang out hot mixes in a room that is not "spec" and probably violates several acoustic laws... but, they know their system and room... don't obsess over the science, make music :)
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kelldammit
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Post by kelldammit »

my front left and right are equidistant from my listening position (37 inches), and 30 degrees from the center line. i used pink noise (-20db), an spl meter (c-weighting, slow response) and made sure their levels were the same. the stereo imaging/balance is excellent :)
unfortunately, since i do not have an rta/calibration mic, it just comes down to learning the system in that room...after a while you get a feel for it. as was suggested, listen to other stuff you like in your system. try to make your stuff sound like that. another good idea is to import stuff you like into dp, and look at the freq response curves in mweq/fft, and note the differences between them and yours.
there is a cool program for pc called harbal, that analyzes eq curves of stuff you import, as well as giving you some stock ones...you can then import your material in, and see how the curves differ, and adjust them to match. in theory, it doesn't mess with the power levels, either. very cool for just this kind of thing. it's one of the only things i miss about pc.
otherwise, just listen on everything you can, and check your mixes in mono...

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Post by oldguitars »

yep, ideally you should tune the room, not the speakers. Real traps are awesome. Check their site out http://www.realtraps.com/ There is a wealth of info there.
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owel
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Post by owel »

I agree... fix the room as best as you can.

You can't really fix a bad room by EQing the monitors... even if you use RTA /EQ and tweak the EQ as best as you can. Well... it will probably sound right where the test mic was positioned, but not in other areas of the room. You can have nulls in some areas, and overbooming bass in other areas. Or move your head a few inches left or right from the mic position and the response will be different.

More info can be found here
http://www.johnlsayers.com/
One thing that I did notice, since I do mostly dance music, is that people and clubs tend to use what I call the U curve in their systems. Meaning, the bass is cranked, the tremble is cranked, and everything in the middle is about normal.
It's called the Disco Smile :)


>Should I even worry about testing with other EQ settings beyond my flat response now?

I bet if you move your test mic to another position, you'll see the freq response will be out of whack in the new position.
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grimepoch
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Post by grimepoch »

I certainly agree about the room, and I have been working towards fixing that first. What I mainly notices was a few HUGE humps in the frequency response. The problem really is that the subwoofer is just crap, it came from my theatre room which I bought quite a long while ago. So the EQing that I am using now is more of a temporary fix.

I use Tannoy Reveal Active monitors so I am about to pick up their 10-inch complementary subwoofer. I've been talking with Tannoy, they believe this will fix some of the problems I am having with the bass end response.

In addition, I am adding a few diffusors and sound absorbtion panels to the room, just enough to done it down a bit. I've also tried to get as many surfaces away from the fronts of the speakers and my ears to try and reduce reflections from the things around me.

So far, the sound has improved tremendously, so that is good. These extra little steps will certainly help.

Let me ask this last question. From the back of my monitors to the wall is about two feet. Right now, there is nothing on that wall behind them. I could move the desk away from the wall a bit more, or, should I add some pads behind them to keep from getting reflections from the air coming out the port?
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kelldammit
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Post by kelldammit »

i'm assuming the ports in question are bass ports...
for stuff like that, traps are probably your best bet. i don't think diffuser or absorption pads would do you much good (they primarily work on higher freq's due to their shorter wavelengths).

if traps are a can't do, you could try to move your monitors away from the wall a bit (another foot or so?), and . and perhaps angle them (assuming the backs of them are parallel to the wall)...you may at least get rid of some of the direct reflection weirdness, but you'd probably just notice a different bottom end issue elsewhere...
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