Metal style drum sample replacement in DP 10

[rawrooo]

Metal style drum sample replacement in DP 10

For those who use DP 10 for metal production and regularly layer drum samples over acoustic drums (like using Superior Drummer/EZ Drummer etc), how do go about doing so?

I’ve been using DP since 1995 but to this day, I’ve found doing this very normal kind of work to be a frustratingly slow and bug filled endeavor in DP. I get the distinct impression it’s much easier in PT or Logic etc but DP is where I’m fastest and most comfortable. But it’s bad enough that it makes me wonder - every single day - if I’m using the right software for the work I do.

I’ve tried using MOTU’s Trigger plugin (uselessly inaccurate though the idea behind it is...nice), Toontrack’s trigger app (I don’t remember the name but it also placed the notes all over the place), Addictive Trigger (better but still totally inaccurate with lots of drift in sync too, although I think each app/plugin did this too). It’s like everything I’ve tried places notes as much as 40-80 ticks off from when the drum was actually hit.

I’ve also tried analyzing beats and doing it as per the manual but in the end i found it as laborious as drawing in the notes one at a time. Tweaking the position of each beat to align it to every single transient takes forever, even for a three minute song. In comparison I’ve watched YouTube videos of people laying out an entire song in PT in just a few minutes. Was I doing it wrong? Does anyone do this job quickly and easily using DP’s beats functionality?

I use Superior Drummer 2 but I understand version 3 has this kind of thing built into it. I hate the $400 non upgrade Toontrack does with this but does anyone actually get highly accurate results with it? Or with Slate Trigger?

Regardless of what methods I may have used, have mercy on me and PLEASE hip me to a better, fast way of going about this in DP? Thanks!!!

[mikehalloran]

Drumagog 5 is pretty good for what you want. The Pro is $99 while the Platinum is $199. Lots of replacement content included. Of course you can buy more libraries like anything else.
https://drumagog.com/features/compare-editions

There's an issue with DP 10.11 on the Mac Mojave 10.14.6. I don't know if DP, Mac or… — and neither do they. I received a tool from Drumagog Support this morning so that they can run a trace and see what is going on.

Anyway, there's a demo you can download to check out.

[rawrooo]

Drumagog 5 is pretty good for what you want. The Pro is $99 while the Platinum is $199. Lots of replacement content included. Of course you can buy more libraries like anything else.
https://drumagog.com/features/compare-editions

There's an issue with DP 10.11 on the Mac Mojave 10.14.6. I don't know if DP, Mac or… — and neither do they. I received a tool from Drumagog Support this morning so that they can run a trace and see what is going on.

Anyway, there's a demo you can download to check out.

Thanks for the suggestion Mike. Does Drumagog export MIDI that is accurate? Like where i wont have to be sliding notes around once the notes are on a MIDI track i mean.

[Drumwizard]

Slate Trigger - what could be better?
Ease of use, time saving, quality!

[rawrooo]

Slate Trigger - what could be better?
Ease of use, time saving, quality!

hi Drumwizard thanks for replying. Do you get super accurate results with it? Like not needing to move MIDI notes to line up with its corresponding audio? Also does it work well with exporting its MIDI to a MIDI track? THANKS

[Killahurts]

Slate Trigger does what you want. What you're asking about timing is automatic latency compensation, and both DP and Trigger do this right, and most importantly, together. I have a whole bunch of Trigger expansion sets, so that makes it all the more fun for me.

My opinion: It can keep up with most metal, but if you don't have a hard hitter you might have to put on a transient designer or a compressor/bright EQ in front of it so you don't miss anything. Of course, if you're blending with the recorded track you use a duplicate for the Trigger track. They always sync perfectly for me. You almost always have to finesse the Trigger MIDI settings for each song, but that's a good thing.

As to the export of MIDI, I don't know because I've never done it from DP via Trigger.

[rawrooo]

Slate Trigger does what you want. What you're asking about timing is automatic latency compensation

Hi Killahurts thanks for replying. No I dont believe it has anything to do with latency compensation. It's just plain old slop in the cases I mentioned before. I reckon it's poor plugin coding on somewhat emergent technologies.

and both DP and Trigger do this right, and most importantly, together. I have a whole bunch of Trigger expansion sets, so that makes it all the more fun for me.

My opinion: It can keep up with most metal, but if you don't have a hard hitter you might have to put on a transient designer or a compressor/bright EQ in front of it so you don't miss anything.

I've been doing that when trying the other methods as well, it does often help yeah! In my cases the plugins werent about to deliver accuracy no matter what but it does help notes get recognized at least. A little expansion, filtering, some transient enhancement, yeah good stuff thank you.

Of course, if you're blending with the recorded track you use a duplicate for the Trigger track. They always sync perfectly for me. You almost always have to finesse the Trigger MIDI settings for each song, but that's a good thing.

As to the export of MIDI, I don't know because I've never done it from DP via Trigger.

Ok so about this - when you look at a bounce of the Trigger output (meaning the Slate drums printed onto an audio track by whatever method you prefer), and compare it to the original drum, do the transients actually line up and stay there reliably across the whole song without drifting?

For me I found that with the other plugins/apps I've tried for this, it can almost sound kinda ok in the full mix but if I zoom in to edit something I'll see that the notes arent lined up with the source track. It's a kind of thing I might not notice at first but once the mix has all the tracks clear and easily audible, later I'll hear that my snare or kick transient is blurry and weird from those tiny flams between the original and sample.

In other words, just from a scientific point of view, leaving out subjectivity, have you actually confirmed that the notes are in sync?

THANK YOU this is actually very helpful being able to ask someone direct questions about it!!!

[Saintmatthew]

Have you tried opening the drum track in the pitch correction view?

[rawrooo]

Have you tried opening the drum track in the pitch correction view?

Probably at some point but it would have been by mistake. Now you’ve got me curious now about what might be lurking there!

[Killahurts]

In other words, just from a scientific point of view, leaving out subjectivity, have you actually confirmed that the notes are in sync?

No, I don't do sample to sample tests like that anymore.. too old and impatient.

I'll solo the tracks and listen to the result, while I observe it with my metering system for phase alignment. So far with Trigger I haven't had the need to adjust any tracks with Precision Delay, et al.. they seem to be spot on with the original track. Certainly they've never been all over the place, as you described with other software.

FWIW, I never bounce Trigger or any other MIDI tracks offline. They always get frozen, or I record them manually, so that it's always playing the instrument in real time.

[rawrooo]

thanks Killahurts!!!

[dwilliams]

Slate Trigger works out of the box. Simple to use and tight. Easy.

[rawrooo]

Slate Trigger works out of the box. Simple to use and tight. Easy.

When you export the MIDI does the timing stay tight? Thank you!

[dwilliams]

Slate Trigger works out of the box. Simple to use and tight. Easy.

When you export the MIDI does the timing stay tight? Thank you!

I don't bother exporting the MIDI. I just bounce it out. I haven't found that it needs time alignment. If you need to tweak the levels of the hits or move things around I guess I might try that. Probably, I would just adjust the egregious hits in the audio track and let Trigger run in real time and do it's thing. If you want, you can bounce the trigger performance as a new audio track and remove the plug-in. That might need some very slight time alignment. I don't know. Too many steps...

[rawrooo]

I don't bother exporting the MIDI. I just bounce it out. I haven't found that it needs time alignment. If you need to tweak the levels of the hits or move things around I guess I might try that. Probably, I would just adjust the egregious hits in the audio track and let Trigger run in real time and do it's thing. If you want, you can bounce the trigger performance as a new audio track and remove the plug-in. That might need some very slight time alignment. I don't know. Too many steps...

I hear that yeah. It seems like these kind of plugins work best in real time (as opposed to being bounced or exported as MIDI). Do you usually use the Slate samples or a capture from the session you’re mixing?

Really I’m just looking for a way to use my Toontrack libraries when doing sample replacement (to explain why I’m looking for that so adamantly). To do that I’m gona need MIDI notes.

Also this is kind of off topic but I’m often hearing new stuff thinking oh yeah there’s that obvious Slate snare I’m always hearing in videos about mixing on YouTube haha. Ofc who knows what was used. To be fair there’s a few Toontrack samples like are recognizable like that too.