Surround in DP

omnicow · Post by **omnicow** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:56 pm

Hello everyone! This is my first post. I am so excited, after so many years of using crappy windows systems, I've finally made the step for a mac. It's in the mail right now and I can hardly wait. The whole reason that I want to system is to make music. Right now I'm deciding between which program I want to go with, Digital Performer or Logic Pro. I'm leaning toward Performer from what I've seen of it's features and it's price. One thing that really interests me is the ability to record in 10.2 surround. Now, that's something that I would really love to do, be on the absolute cutting edge of music, but I wouldn't even know where to begin even setting up a 10.2 surround setup! Does anyone know of any good tutorials for creating surround audio in DP 4.6? Does a Mac natively support that or would I need another audio card? Thank you anyone for any help!!

aafarr2 · Post by **aafarr2** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:15 pm

I don't know much on it, but I'm fairly sure that you would need a surround system (or access to one nearby) to monitor your recordings.

I do know that 10.2 surround is (or is close to) this setup:

2 Mains
2 Wide Fronts
2 Surrounds
2 Rear Surrounds
1 Center
1 Rear Center
2 Subwoofers

As I understand it, surround mixes are done one of two ways in DP. DP either does it automatically for you in one track and you control the panning with controllers (either externally or on your screen) or you create all 12 tracks and mix them respectivevly to their speaker. As far as sound card or what not, thats for someone else to answer.

Sorry I wasn't much help, good luck in your quest. If its any consolation, I much prefer DP over Logic using both in personal experience.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:53 pm

omnicow · Post by **omnicow** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:43 am

Performer doesn't mix to surround? Are you sure? That's a feature that they had listed on their website. I've looked and looked and I cant even find 10.2 receivers. I know that if I was to master in 10.2 hardly anyone would be able to hear it, but my intention was to sell a 5.1 DVD audio copy, and keep the 10.2 for myself so I can play concerts with an insane amount of channels. Well if Performer cant mix to surround that's a big letdown because that's a big part of what i wanted to do. Since I cant even figure out how I would set up 10.2 right now I would be happy to mix to 5.1 until I get to the point that I'm ready for 10.2. I would like to do things like make a sound that spins around the room, this would be really awesome for shows especially when you get some light effects and stuff. Are you saying that I couldn't do this in DP?

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:28 am

magicd · Post by **magicd** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:50 am

Digital Performer can record up to 10.2 channels of sound into a single track.

The Waveform Editor in DP supports up to 10.2 channels.

DP ships with a number of surround specific plug-ins, including the MW Limiter, EQs, Bass Manager, eVerb, Multi-tap Delay (Very Cool in surround!) etc.

Of course, you can also have mono, stereo, and other multi-channel tracks that are mixed into up to a 10.2 channel output. DP provides a number of ways to handle stereo content in a surround environment.

DP also has up to 10.2 channel busses and auxilliary tracks (subgroups, effects returns, etc)

DP allows you to choose any inputs and outputs on your audio interface for surround input and output. I/O ports can support multiple formats. For example, you could have a stereo mix sent to output 1-2 on the interface, while simultaneously having a surround mix that also used output 1-2 for the L/R component.

When you make a surround mix in DP, you can bounce that mix to stems. If you were mixing to 5.1, the bounce would give you a total of six files (stems), that are labeled .R, .L, .C, .LFE, .Rs, and .Ls.

In order to encode the stems to a commercial surround format, somebody has to pay a licence fee for the encoding process. When you purchase a program such as DVD Studio Pro, part of the cost is the encoder licencing fee.

I personally use DVD Studio Pro to author DVDs. I recently did a commercial release for a Christmas DVD using DP and DVD Studio Pro. If you do need to make your own encoded mixes or DVDs, DVD Studio Pro is worth the cost.

Magic Dave

stephentayler · Post by **stephentayler** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:51 am

DP does mix to surround, and it can output up to 10.2 depending on the number of outs from your audio interfaces, so that is no problem.

I output my 5.1 mix to a Traveler which feeds a SPL monitor controller which is routed to my 5.1 Genelec monitors. This works well, and I have mixed many projects for both for both DVD and live installations.

You create a 5.1 file from DP. You DO need to encode Dolby Digital AC3 to put the audio on DVD-V. DVD Studio Pro contains the encoder. You do not have to buy the whole Final Cut Studio bundle for this, you can buy it individually, check out the Apple store.

I think DP is great for surround mixing, and it comes with a load of great 5.1 plugs and utilities as standard.

All the best

Stephen

magicd · Post by **magicd** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:55 am

What he said!

Dave

nathan m · Post by **nathan m** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:47 am

I would love to see dp include software for authoring dvd audio discs. they had a deal with discwelder bronze, but I would like something a little more pro. more menu options and support for more formats. I think that discwelder bronze can't do 5.1 at 24bit/96khz

any suggestions for a more full featured mac dvd audio authoring software title?

emulatorloo · Post by **emulatorloo** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:32 am

omnicow wrote:Does anyone know of any good tutorials for creating surround audio in DP 4.6? Does a Mac natively support that or would I need another audio card? Thank you anyone for any help!!

Hello Omnicow:

the DP manual has good info on mixing surround in DP. It is real easy to set up in dp.

You will need a audio card or firewire interface with at least six outs (for left front, center, right front, right rear, left rear, and subwoofer) and a way to monitor that in surround.

There is a nice article about setting up your home studio for surround.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/surround_sound_studio.htm

-----
Now, here is how I set my surround mixing/monitoring up.

I have a Denon Home Theater receiver that has an "EXT IN" for 5.1, which are basically there for users to connect the analog outs of their DVD Audio players to. It is 3 pairs of RCA connectors. Not all home theater recievers have an "EXT IN" so make sure the one you purchase has one

I connected 6 outputs of my sound card to those "Ext In" connectors.

Then I told DP what output was what (Left Right, Center, Sub etc) very easy and it is all in the manual.

emulatorloo · Post by **emulatorloo** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:34 am

nathan m wrote:any suggestions for a more full featured mac dvd audio authoring software title?

Maybe I am wrong but it seems like DVD-A is going away. . .I don't see it in the stores any more -- nor am I seeing new DTS releases either

Seeing more of those Dual Disc thingys which are AC3/Dolby Digital 5.1. For that I would guess Apple DVD Studio would be the way to go.

rockitcity · Post by **rockitcity** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:55 am

...be on the absolute cutting edge of music, but I wouldn't even know where to begin even setting up a 10.2 surround setup!...

I love your enthusiasm, omnicow! But I would like to mention that about the only place I can think of where a 10.2 mix might be used would be in some kind of special presentation situation, maybe like Omnimax theaters or a theme park installation. I suppose you could set up one in your home with two 5.1 receivers, but I doubt the results would be any good. 5.1 for the home or release is do-able, though. You probably should get really good at stereo mixing first...(if you're not already)!

Have fun!

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:49 am

one of the really sweet parts about it is the foldown in the master channel...so you can monitor 5.1, then go to stereo, then mono, or any other bundles you have set up. it's pretty slick.

kell

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:51 am

rockitcity wrote:
...be on the absolute cutting edge of music, but I wouldn't even know where to begin even setting up a 10.2 surround setup!...
I love your enthusiasm, omnicow! But I would like to mention that about the only place I can think of where a 10.2 mix might be used would be in some kind of special presentation situation, maybe like Omnimax theaters or a theme park installation. I suppose you could set up one in your home with two 5.1 receivers, but I doubt the results would be any good. 5.1 for the home or release is do-able, though. You probably should get really good at stereo mixing first...(if you're not already)!

What he said.

Aramis · Post by **Aramis** » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:54 am

stephentayler wrote:DP does mix to surround, and it can output up to 10.2 depending on the number of outs from your audio interfaces, so that is no problem.

I output my 5.1 mix to a Traveler which feeds a SPL monitor controller which is routed to my 5.1 Genelec monitors. This works well, and I have mixed many projects for both for both DVD and live installations.

You create a 5.1 file from DP. You DO need to encode Dolby Digital AC3 to put the audio on DVD-V. DVD Studio Pro contains the encoder. You do not have to buy the whole Final Cut Studio bundle for this, you can buy it individually, check out the Apple store.

I think DP is great for surround mixing, and it comes with a load of great 5.1 plugs and utilities as standard.

All the best

Stephen

Do not forget that there is multiple way to get surround on cd and dvd ....

1- DVD-A support surround not compressed
2- DVD-Video support Surround compressed either Dolby or DTS
3- CD may have DTS on it but at 44khz

All of those formats will need a piece of software to prepare the media ....

DP mixes thoses projects in surround but does not saved them on the media .

Plus , I have not seen yet a media with more than 5.1 ............

Aramis

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