The future of CoreAudio and AudioUnits - a real concern

[Shooshie]

I don't see it getting dropped or anything. Work continues on it. Of course most of the recent work has been either 1) porting it to ios so ipads can be DAWs and games can use plugins for their audio and 2) making more of the api Objective C friendly (its written in C and C++ for performance reasons as Objective C message dispatch is marginally more expensive than C++ virtual function calls).


[...]

Regardless...I don't see CoreAudio falling off the map - it is heavily used for all things audio in OSX and iOS. I just don't know if the DAW industry uptake has gone beyond being able to open and call AudioUnits.

Yeah, I don't see Core Audio going away. It's used for everything audio oriented in the Mac and its peripherals, and so many apps have an audio feature that allows embedding audio, or even recording voice notes, and those are just core audio calls. If it went away, apps like that would be very hard to make. And if nothing else, Core Audio is fast. Makes for lightweight audio apps, too.

Shoosh

[Michael Canavan]

When PCI has evolved into something small, hard drives have shrunk, and all components are a fraction of their current size, why wouldn't Apple return to a rectangular shape, with space and connections inside for some of these things? There's simply no practical reason to continue developing a cylindrical computer.

If Apple's idea of progress is to take their inspired tower design, with its latched door, sliding components, and easy connection for up to 6 internal hard drives, and drag its guts out onto your desktop, with power cords and cables strewn everywhere, then I think Apple has lost its vision. It's a beautiful computer — by itself. But it's also an eviscerated computer if you need any of those guts they dragged out of it.

The reasons for this are actually pretty straightforward. USB 3, Thunderbolt etc. are all fast, and offer a layer of abstraction away from the CPU, power supply, logic board etc. Design concerns like heating and energy use are all easier if something isn't sitting directly on your hardware bus, something bought third party from who knows where? Sure it adds to the cost of the computer for us, but it makes it much much easier on their tech support when they can say "Disconnect the Thunderbolt peripherals and restart, does it still do X?" as opposed to, "Open up your computer and take out your PCIe cards, plus a couple of your hard drives. Does it still do X?" Plus because of the possibility of causing damage internally to the computer, it adds that to the mix for their support as well.

I agree, towers are better, but I completely get why they like the peripheral paradigm.

[mikehalloran]

I'm not arguing that Apple shouldn't have updated the tower. There's certainly a market for it. But they didn't and it's not coming back. There's no development team looking at this.

Feel free to write reams on how I blew it if it ever comes back. For now, I'm pretty certain that I am right.

You really think Apple is always going to make a cylindrical computer for their pro line? When PCI has evolved into something small, hard drives have shrunk, and all components are a fraction of their current size, why wouldn't Apple return to a rectangular shape, with space and connections inside for some of these things? There's simply no practical reason to continue developing a cylindrical computer.

If Apple's idea of progress is to take their inspired tower design, with its latched door, sliding components, and easy connection for up to 6 internal hard drives, and drag its guts out onto your desktop, with power cords and cables strewn everywhere, then I think Apple has lost its vision. It's a beautiful computer — by itself. But it's also an eviscerated computer if you need any of those guts they dragged out of it. Sure, it's selling. It's the fastest thing out there. But when people wake up one day and realize they've spent $10K putting all those guts on their tables, with RAID boxes that have their own fans, while Joe PC can still buy it all for under $3500, I think the beauty of their cylinder is going to fade, and they'll start engineering for productivity again.

But I'm repeating myself for about the 5th time, so I'll shut up. Still, if I were you, I wouldn't place a lot of monetary bets on the longevity of that cylinder.

I didn't want to respond till I reached out to some friends at Apple. I know some that go back to the Apple II days. It's very difficult to find out what Apple is doing when they don't want anyone to know. Finding out what isn't happening -- piece of cake!

I said nothing about the cylinder shape. There will be at least one more Mac Pro cylinder but I don't know if it ships this year. Sales are very good but it's a very small part of the overall picture. There's a lot of internal push for another high end rack mount Mac for enterprise customers -- could happen or not. The shape isn't important.

I wiill say that the tower as you know it with spare PCIe slots that users can fill is absolutely, positively deader than the Witch of the East. No one at a Apple can imagine a scenario that brings the tower back.

I dropped by a local watering hole yesterday and mentioned this to a group of Apple engineers whom I know. I also mentioned this to my son-in-law last week. In both cases, they started asking if floppy drives, ADP ports etc were being requested -- that is when they weren't laughing so hard. Then they started lecturing me on why it will never happen. I'll spare you since it's all been written before.

I feel confident that there are no plans in the foreseeable future to reintroduce any Apple product that the end user can easily modify on the inside. This won't stop companies like OWC from trying to figure out how to do it anyway but the user configurable Mac is gone and is never coming back. I still have the extra long Torx 8 and case cracker needed to install 4mb RAM into my Mac+ in case I forget how long Apple has felt this way.

The reason the NEXt and the Cube weren't successful is easy. The technology wasn't ready. That was then. Nowadays, PCIe over Thunderbolt, usb 3, the forthcoming usb 3.1, Ethernet AVB and other technologies have changed that. You want to expand your Mac, go right ahead, there are plenty of ways to do it on the outside.

MOTU is going all in on Thunderbolt and AVB. Intel has finally released the chip sets they promised by the Spring of 2011. Others will follow. Intel is putting the squeeze on PC makers to adopt TB and has announced the chips that can make that happen easily -- which is not to say that they will until/unless Microsoft gets it together but they might. Right now, only a few such as Dell have TB and it's much slower than on a Mac.

I think that soldered RAM is a mistake on the Retina portables. It's the same one they made when the G4 went from 4 slots to 3. Not being to upgrade the core SSD? Really? You don't always know what you're going to need when you buy the machine. Remember when a 1G hard drive was so massive, no one could imagine it could be filled? I'm chafing at a 1T boot drive on my iMac and have no intention of going back to spinners except for Time Machine. I Don't know if my next Mac will be an iMac or nMP but it will have a 2T SSD or blade to boot from (they're just starting to appear).

[mhschmieder]

Mike, thanks for posting that. I have not allowed to myself to read this post due to being afraid I would not have the self-control to avoid posting a response, and that could be dangerous (for the forum). You knew how to vet things so it would be clear in your head what is OK to share with the general public. I only opened this to read YOUR post because I wanted to see if you would say something that would clue me in as to how much of what I know is still NDA (a lot, as it turns out, but slightly less than I thought). But all that matters is that you've put people's main fears to rest.

[stubbsonic]

When I got my RMBP, I was a little concerned, but I just went with way more RAM than I had ever had before, and got the 500 GB ssd.

Didn't feel like a mistake because it was a big jump ahead of what I had previously.

But your point is well taken.

On the other hand, because Apple thinks of their portables as "disposable" in the sense that you wouldn't necessarily NEED to upgrade RAM or SSD in the lifespan of the product, that they could cut costs by not making that part modular.

[James Steele]

Then let's have Apple deal with all the clutter. What bothers me is the all the cables hanging off a computer when having all these peripherals having to be outside the computer. One of the thing I liked about towers is having all your drives contained inside it, etc.

[mikehalloran]

Then let's have Apple deal with all the clutter. What bothers me is the all the cables hanging off a computer when having all these peripherals having to be outside the computer. One of the thing I liked about towers is having all your drives contained inside it, etc.

No argument there. Neither do I disagree with you or Shooshie that the tower shouldn't have been discontinued. I love the Tower. Having changed hard drives in two E-Macs, how could I not?

No one violates NDAs to talk to me. I can't tell you if the rumored 12.2" 4k Retina screen is for a large iPad or a new MacBook Air or the rumored laptop that will run Mac OS and iOS (being handicapped, That's the rumor I hope is true). Do I know people who know? Oh yea. Will they even give me a hint? They would have been fired a long time ago if there was ever a chance of that happening.

I'm just the messenger.

[Shooshie]

Well, that sounds pretty final. I'll still hold out hope for another tower. Maybe in 3 or 4 years. But it looks like the next Mac I buy will be another $10,000 watershed event, where I replace all my RAM, Drives, PCI devices, and everything right down to the cables, not to mention having to buy expensive RAID cabinets and PCI peripherals. Man, I hate that. I like being able topic up a single object (albeit a heavy one), walk out the door, and know that when I plug it in at the next stop, it's going to be the same computer I just unplugged. Lots of drives, PCI devices, RAM... you know the stuff.

Thanks for the info, Mike. I'll try to focus on the positive side: the Mac itself is a lot smaller and lighter. But the spaghetti mess it's going to create all over my desk is inexcusable! Fortunately, unless they write it into obsolescence, my current 2012 Mac Pro should last at least until 2017, and maybe many years beyond. Or not. I just don't know.

You know? It's times like this that make me feel very vulnerable to be trapped with the company that makes both the hardware and the OS that runs it. They just change one little thing in the OS, and you're off the upgrade path until you buy an expensive new computer and change your entire work center. Likewise, they change something in the hardware, and you're off buying RAID chassis, and all the other gear mentioned above. They have a lot of control over what we have to do if we're going to keep using what's familiar to us, and we have no place to turn for alternatives. We're stuck. Or, to use the colloquial term, screwed.

Shooshie

[billf]

You know? It's times like this that make me feel very vulnerable to be trapped with the company that makes both the hardware and the OS that runs it. They just change one little thing in the OS, and you're off the upgrade path until you buy an expensive new computer and change your entire work center. Likewise, they change something in the hardware, and you're off buying RAID chassis, and all the other gear mentioned above. They have a lot of control over what we have to do if we're going to keep using what's familiar to us, and we have no place to turn for alternatives. We're stuck. Or, to use the colloquial term, screwed.

Discussions like these make me wish Linux had some better solutions.

[mhschmieder]

Mike, my concerns were more about CoreAudio, which you didn't address and which I can't talk about, so what I meant in general was that you showed me a way to vet such things and talk about them in a way that is OK. Thanks. Once everyone's back from NAMM I'll try to remember to talk to our main guy to see what's considered public (not the same thing as widely broadcast, as most people probably know -- being ABLE to find information from the outside isn't the same as it being widely distributed to the public).

[monkey man]

We need a computer company that is interested in computers. By "computer," I'm talking about that old-fashioned unit sitting on or below your desk, in front of whose monitor we sit and do actual creative work.

Amen, brother.

Those directions are no longer about helping people do jobs, but about enabling mass narcissism at shockingly profitable prices. Does the narcissist want to spend time sussing out voice leadings in a choral Mass, or wrangling rock-n-rollers to play in time, in tune, and straight for long enough to produce an album? No, the narcissist puts on the  Watch, hops in bed with narcissistic hookup partner, also wearing  Watch (so they can send each other their precious heartbeats, oh my!), then pulls on Gucci bicycle shorts and goes out to sweat where the most people can see him/her with  Watch.

Classic stuff, 'Meister.

Then let's have Apple deal with all the clutter. What bothers me is the all the cables hanging off a computer when having all these peripherals having to be outside the computer. One of the thing I liked about towers is having all your drives contained inside it, etc.

Just the thought of redesigning my rack for this stuff's already caused much angst, James.

Well, that sounds pretty final. I'll still hold out hope for another tower. Maybe in 3 or 4 years. But it looks like the next Mac I buy will be another $10,000 watershed event, where I replace all my RAM, Drives, PCI devices, and everything right down to the cables, not to mention having to buy expensive RAID cabinets and PCI peripherals. Man, I hate that. I like being able topic up a single object (albeit a heavy one), walk out the door, and know that when I plug it in at the next stop, it's going to be the same computer I just unplugged. Lots of drives, PCI devices, RAM... you know the stuff.

I'm hungry for MOTU's new interfaces' converter quality. I'll only buy MOTU. I therefore have no option, it seems, should I cave to said appetite, but to knowingly negotiate this very same damned-to-Hell path. Damned to my wallet, my sanity and time. The dilemma is fairdinkum killin' me, bro'.

Fortunately, unless they write it into obsolescence, my current 2012 Mac Pro should last at least until 2017, and maybe many years beyond. Or not. I just don't know.

This is the only fallback for me too, 'Meister. Stick with not-very-good converters and my beloved tower, or kill my wallet and beautifully-designed rack system solely for the sake of those bloody converters.

Sorry all for the emotional posting, both here and in my MOTU AVB thread. It's actually never happened before regarding any product/s... ever. I cannot describe how miffed / disenfranchised I feel. I suppose it's the perception of being stuck in the mud with no clear path forward that's doing my head in more than anything else.

[toodamnhip]

In my spare time I've been talking with developers about the future of Apple's work on the audio kernel of OS X.

Many seem very discouraged.
Steve

Hi Steve,
While you do sound like you know what you’re talking about, I would like to question you a bit before considering the AU sky to be falling?
How MANY developers seem discouraged to you?
And how can you be so sure that your sample group represents enough developers to be more than anecdotal evidence or, dare I say, heresy?
I am not saying you’re wrong. I am saying, why should I believe your sample group of “discouraged” developers is numerically representative enough that I should worry about it?
Or, if not numerically substantial, then, are you in touch with some super heavy weight guy that carries enough importance to be representative of the whole industry with just his one opinion?
We all get all fired up and go off and running, but we should be sure before getting all excited right? Remember the whole of the industry thinking Mac Pros were dead?...

Poof! ...........rumour
And so many deep, heated discussions about going to PCs should apple become a cell phone company.....yikes

[mikehalloran]

Good point. Do any of those developers work at Apple?

The latest versions of Logic Pro 10.1 and Main Stage 3.1 released last week seem to indicate that Apple isn't giving up on AU or CoreAudio anytime soon.

[Gravity Jim]

Agreed. Apple isn't killing off that tech next year or the one after that.

Also, I believe that far, far too much is made of convertor quality, with people spending unnecessary money chasing The Best. Roger Nichols recorded The Nightly in 16 bit with convertors that were just about as good as the ones in your iPhone. "It ain't the shoes, Mars."

The order of importance is: 1. Song. 2. Performance. 3. Everything else.

[Michael Canavan]

Mostly, it's just disappointing that AU, (which was so easy to code for Urs Heckman Started U-He and became one of the most popular small plug in developers), hasn't kept up with VST 2.4 even. They need to catch up to VST3 and do Steinberg better by making it backward compatible like USB has done with 1,2 and 3.
Really, the reason MAS is coming back is because AU is long in the tooth. They certainly aren't giving up on audio, but they need to maintain their proprietary standard to at least their competitors levels.