Question about multi-timbral setting in DP

[epitohm]

Hi everyone,

I took time to go through existing threads but haven't found anything related to my question... excuse me in advance if this has been already discussed.

I'm quite new at MIDI orchestration and a few months ago I spent some time trying to learn Digital Performer. But many things were odd for me so I decided to try PreSonus Studio One which I found more intuitive. And I actually did a few tracks with it.

But DP keeps intriguing me... I can clearly see some strengths and I always keep coming back to it to do some testing or secretly hoping that my initial investment would not be lost in some way.

In the meantime, I came across some video tutorials on Youtube where people show their orchestral templates and found them fundamentally different from my approach… hence my question.

From what I know, you create a multi-timbral instrument with 16 MIDI tracks from DP (shift + option + cmd + I, etc.) and you have 16 tracks assigned to the 16 MIDI channels of Kontakt, VEP or whatever. So far so good. But then I massively rely on volume automation to do both mixing and volume changes as the tracking goes. Problem is you can only control the first MIDI channel's volume. I know that you can create as many Aux tracks as the number of MIDI tracks you have (with proper routing and assignments in the Bundles menu), but then the total number of tracks in the sequence quickly goes crazy, for me at least.

In Studio One, the initial setting takes about the same amount of time but I can activate separate audio outputs for each instrument plugin without their materialising in the sequence as additional tracks and once it's done I only need to press A and can manage automation on the same MIDI track.

I didn't see those aux tracks in the templates of the aforementioned advanced users… they seem to do it another way. Maybe they use CC11 or something to control volume on MIDI tracks directly? There's a fader in the mixer view associated to a MIDI track which I guess has to do with volume but I didn't notice any change in the sound when moving it up and down.

So what's the "usual" way of doing that? How is your own multi-timbral template set up?

My understanding of MIDI is not very good so pardon me if I didn't grasp some very basic concepts

Thanks a lot.

[Shooshie]

Expression control (CC#11) is probably the better way to control your volume. That leaves the fader for mixing, not expression. Still, CC#7 should be available to every track, and should work regardless of the MIDI channel, as long as you've got separate tracks for every channel, which as far as I know is the only way possible.

For exceptional control of dynamics in each track, look for a Breath Control solution. I've got the link around here somewhere, but no time to look for it right now. There is a breath controller, plus a MIDI box in which to plug it. Breath Control (CC#2), is ideal for "real" phrasing. It may take you a while to get used to it, but you'll soon be playing like a pro. And keyboards alone cannot do what BC can do. Not even close. Use BC for volume while playing at the keyboard. That means reprogramming some of your sounds not to use velocity, but to use BC instead. (Or 11, Expression. I think the breath controller may output #11 if you prefer. My Yamaha WX-5 can produce CC#2, #11, or Volume #7.)

Still, I don't know why you believe that Volume only works for the first MIDI channel. I'd have to see what you're doing to troubleshoot that.

Shooshie

[David Polich]

You actually don't create a 16-part multitimbral instrument in DP.
Multimbral is a function of the VI you call up. Kontakt, for example,
will open up and then you can assign 16 instruments to a multi. Once
you've launched Kontakt, you will then see that your MIDI input can
be assigned to Kontakt 5-1, Kontakt 5-2, Kontakt 5-3, and so forth.
And you can have more than one instrument assigned to the same MIDI
channel.

As for "multiple channels of audio" - again - Kontakt, for example, has
its own mixer and you can route different channels to different outputs.
But, they would never be audio tracks - audio tracks are what you'd record the audio from Kontakt into. You'd set them up just like you would any other audio tracks - they need an input ( a bus) and an output (main outs, or an aux bus).

Like Shooshie said, you NEVER want to automate MIDI volume (CC #7). You
should always automate expression, which is cc #11. Adjusting CC #7 just makes the audio output of the VI itself louder, which can result in clipping
and distortion. Think of it this way - CC #7 (volume) is the "ceiling" and
CC #11 (expression) controls the range of output from zero to the ceiling.

Furthermore, you don't want all of your automation on a global basis.
You should record separate MIDI tracks for each instrument in a multi,
and apply automation to each of those tracks. Just like real orchestras -
you have 40 or more individual players each playing different articulations
and expressions on their individual instruments.

I'm not really an orchestrator and I don't do music for film and TV. So
someone else here would have more insight into templates for composing in DP.

[epitohm]

Thanks all for your insightful comments, sort of new horizons for me

@Shooshie: Actually I've just discovered that volume automation (CC#7) would work only if automation is on (little red button activated on the MIDI channel's fader in the mixer view). Don't understand why this option is not available right from start as default setting but anyway... I'll seriously consider getting a breath controller following your advice. Seems like it could save me many hours of programming volume automation trying to achieve realistic expression. Your Yamaha controller is way too expensive for me, unfortunately. Considering value and software versatility I would go for this one:

http://tecontrol.se/products/usb-MIDI-breath-controller

[minimidi]

Considering value and software versatility I would go for this one:

http://tecontrol.se/products/usb-MIDI-breath-controller

I use one of these and I can only recommend it. There is an impressive video showcasing it and the BC3 with Samplemodeling products. The tenor sax and trumpet are unbelievable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUJBW9w_MQo

[Shooshie]

Your Yamaha controller is way too expensive for me, unfortunately. Considering value and software versatility I would go for this one:

http://tecontrol.se/products/usb-MIDI-breath-controller

That's exactly the one I had in mind for you. It should do a great job.

Shoosh

[nk_e]

For years I have had an on-again, off-again relationship with DP. And, like you, I left DP for awhile and took up with StudioOne. That program has a lot going for it, but I keep coming back to DP.

I STRONGLY recommend the DP tutorial courses over at Groove3 by Eli Krantzberg. I don't know if it was the clarity of his tutorials, my own mental timing, or the alignment of some far off stars and planets, but after I watched those a lot of things about DP just clicked for me. (They are much better than the videos at MacProVideo too.) He covers multi-timbal, multi output setups too. Don't skip any of them even if you think you know the topic; there's always a surprising bit of information on offer.

They are on sale for some insanely cheap price right now. Links are below.

Good luck!

[Armageddon]

It also depends on the VI. For example, you have to actually assign the usual MIDI CC#'s to certain VI/GUI functions in SampleTank/Sonik Synth 2/Miroslav Philharmonik, etc. That's not usually the case, but it is something you may want to troubleshoot if things aren't working right.

And, of course, the most important (and most easily-overlooked) one: make sure your tracks and VI are automation playback-enabled. There's a few ways to do that, but the simplest one is to make sure the little green "play" button in the track's (and VI's) Mixer window is lit up.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

As always, we need to remind members to add their setup to their sig. The amount of RAM you have and what OS you are using and how you are booting whatever version of DP (or bridge) you have all affect the number of voices you will reliably get in any multi-timbral environment.

[guitardood]

Perhaps a dumb question, but doesn't Expression(CC#11) also change the characteristics of some sounds besides just raising and lowering volume?

[Shooshie]

Perhaps a dumb question, but doesn't Expression(CC#11) also change the characteristics of some sounds besides just raising and lowering volume?

Depends entirely on who programmed the sound, and what they decided to do there. Expression is just another continuous data controller. The ones with names such as Expression, Breath Control, Modulation, Volume, Pan, etc., are at least more often used for what their name implies. In the case of Expression, that usually equates to volume, but it can also change the timbre if the sound was programmed and/or sampled that way. But you could just as easily assign Expression to vibrato, or to a piano's pedal (if it utilizes continuous pedaling, as with a Disklavier). There is no set rule about it, just suggested guidelines in the MIDI spec.

Shooshie

[buzzsmith]

In my case, I find CC#11 as being primarily a 2nd volume control. Most of my VIs seem to get their tonality differences either through the mod wheel or in lotsa cases, velocity.

Buzzy


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[Shooshie]

I need to revise what I said. While it's true, it doesn't focus on the BIG difference between CC#11 and CC#7.

#7 is output volume. That's audio volume. Even on a MIDI track, it is controlling the output volume of the virtual instrument interface. It's like turning up the gain on the microphone that's listening to that instrument, or turning up the volume on your amp or speakers.

#11 raises the level of the instrument itself: the performance. It's like bowing the violin harder or faster, or blowing the trumpet harder. It's akin to velocity on a keyboard instrument.

Any sampled instrument with more than one layer will benefit from using CC#11, as the timbre of the sound will change when the volume goes up or down. Programmed instruments, likewise, will have disproportionate formants as the volume goes up. Volume #7 will not cause those changes, as it merely raises the loudness of everything in the sound, in parallel.

Shooshie