MOTu 828mk3 + Analogue Mixer + Control Surface?

[unclebob]

Hello All,

After many years, about thirty or so,! of spinning analogue tape, I am just now getting back to setting up a small home recording studio. I have been out of the loop with the home studio thing for over fifteen years now.

I'm hoping that with the expertise here on the forum, I may be able to eventually get my head around a lot of this "digital techy stuff," that's out there these days, especially this whole “digital mixer in software thing.”

Basic GEAR that I just purchased or previously owned, that I will use in setting up my home studio:

1) MOTU 828mk3

2) ZOOM HD16 Digital recorder

3) Behringer Euro 12 channel mixer

4) Behringer Active 8" Studio Monitors

5) Two patch bays, (1) Gaines Audio balanced, (1) ProCo 48 point unbalanced
The Gaines is strictly half normalled - while the ProCo can be normalled, half normalled, or open.

6) Enough Cables and Snakes to wrap around the universe - twice

7) A 2.8ghz dual core PC running WIN 7 Ultimate with 8GB Ram

Cubase 5


My Goal is to TRACK, MONITOR, AND MIX using these two basic scenarios:

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Scenario #1
The goal is to track, monitor, and mix a recording
mainly by myself. I'm a guitarist.
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1) Multiple guitar parts into Cubase
2) MIDI keyboard into Cubase trigerring bass sounds etc.
3) Trigger VST instruments like EZ Drummer and Steinberg's Grand Piano from MIDI keyboard


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Scenario #2
The goal is to track, monitor, and mixing down a small jazz ensemble
involving the following instrumentation: bass (electric or acoustic,)
a small set of jazz drums, a vocalist, and keys.
Basically, to track, monitor, and mix a group of five people.
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1) Guitar parts direct into Cubase
2) Keyboards direct into Cubase
3) Mic on the upright bass
4) Mic for vocalist
5) Two overhead mics on the drum set
6) One mic on the snare drum


I would like to have some faders under my hand to control volumes. I tried using the MOTU 828mk3 as suggested in the manual, ie: “All in the Box,” by eliminating a hardware mixer, and almost took my head off . . . with a massive volume spike. Luckily, my 1031A Behringer monitors have some type of “protective circuit” built in.
* My biggest questions and confusions:

1) How do I setup or route, all the inputs and outputs in Cubase 5 as it relates to the MOTU inputs and outputs and my analogue or digital mixer?

2) Can I integrate my ZOOM HD16 as a mixer to control all the MOTU inputs, outputs? Do I need to set some type of clock thing going if I do connect them, even if I am just plugging in the MOTU mk3 outputs into that mixer to monitor the sounds? The ZOOM HD16 is mainly a hardware recorder, but I do know that it can be used as a Control Surface for Cubase 5. I have been able to get it to control Cubase's internal faders and such at one point, while just using the ZOOM and Cubase together.

3) Right now for ease of setup, to monitor the sounds from the MOTU, I have the MAIN OUTS of the MOTU mk3 coming into my Behringer 1202 small mixer on channels 11-12 which I use to control the overall volume of the MOTU and Cubase.

* I then have the Main Outs of the Behringer 1202 mixer going into my Behringer active monitors.
So I can hear everything. Then I just use the main fader on the Euro 1202 to control my overall volume. Very basic, but it works so far. Not much flexibility though, because it is just the Main Outs as one big group coming out of the MOTU.

4) That CueMix software seems pretty convoluted to an ole' analogue guy like myself? Do I need a PHD degree in metaphysics or quantum physics – or both ???

I seem to be praying to find a signal as I wade through that thing.
I like simplicity at this age. Someone with the “new know how,” out there, surely must have an idea with this specific gear.

5) I also read in the MOTU mk3 manual, that I can use ONLY Cubase to control CueMix by using Direct Monitoring, is that correct? And how would I access the MOTU FX and compression etc. from just using Cubase?


So basically, I am wondering what the best integration/use of my gear would be for my goals outlined above:
I'd like to keep it “simple.”


Use ALL three pieces of Basic Hardware?:
MOTUmk3, Behringer 1202 mixer, & ZOOM HD16 Recorder.
(With the patch bays or without ?)

Use the Behringer 1202 mixer to monitor outputs by running ALL the MOTU outputs into it, so that I have a hardware mixer with some faders under my fingers.

And then use the ZOOM HD16 ONLY as a Control Surface unit, to control Cubase after the initial recording is done?


Finally, thanks to any and all for your musical and technical input, suggestions, and/or expert advice!

[4stripes]

Welcome to the home studio! You'll have fun but there's also a learning curve on all this stuff, so give it some time--chances are you'll change things 4-5 times till you settle in! You've got quite a bit of gear that is redundant in functionality:

• The MOTU and Zoom are both interfaces and mixers.
  Zoom and Cubase are both mixers and recorders.
  The MOTU, Zoom, Cubase, and Euro are all mixers.
  The Zoom can be a DAW controller for Cubase (via MCU) and the MOTU (if Zoom does HUI protocol).

So I can see where the confusion lies. You could set this up in 1/2 a dozen different ways. It could be a standalone recording setup without needing a computer (via the Zoom), or a mix of the two.

I'd keep each piece of gear to one function each for sanity's sake while you get used to your new gear.

You need to decide between the MOTU and Zoom what will be your interface front and back end first (ADC and DAC). Naturally the MOTU seems like the best candidate. In that case, maybe the Zoom will be just a dummy controller for Cubase or the MOTU. You probably don't want to use both as an interface and have two interfaces hanging off your PC at the same time.

Now, the Euro (Xenyx 1202?) is a good choice for some hands on out-of-the-box connectivity and headphone mixes for tracking, so I'd take all your MOTU outs into the 12 channels and use the tape return as your monitor system, taking advantage of its tactical controls for monitors. However, if I knew the model I could better answer, but most desktop mixers don't have direct outs, so you can only easily record the main stereo out into the MOTU. That's kind of a bummer because you have an interface with 28 inputs! That's why it's not as good a choice for connectivity for recording multichannels, only mixing and monitoring. But if you only do one thing at a time anyway... well you didn't need the 828 and a MicroBook or Audio Express would've been enough--but hey you've got room to grow!

So your system would look like this:

Audio sources (including Euro) > MOTU > Cubase > MOTU > Euro > Speakers
The Zoom here could also connect to the PC and act as a Cubase controller for your transport and faders as stated above.

Most of the time with multichannel IO, you want to connect every in and out to your mixer, not just stay in a stereo world for everything--if you wanted to do that, you wouldn't need half of this gear.

3) Right now for ease of setup, to monitor the sounds from the MOTU, I have the MAIN OUTS of the MOTU mk3 coming into my Behringer 1202 small mixer on channels 11-12 which I use to control the overall volume of the MOTU and Cubase.

This is not a very slick way of doing this. For one you should connect CTRL ROOM OUT to monitors, not MAIN. MAIN is for your recording output--connect that to a MOTU stereo in. Most mixers have 2track/tape returns in the main section for monitoring external equipment. In this case, consider your DAW output an external deck. Using channels is a trip down Feedback Road if you're not careful. The MOTU has dedicated main outs which I recommend using for your main monitoring, plugged into the Euro master section returns. Alternatively, you could use the MOTU frontpanel for all your monitoring instead of the Euro and connect it direct to your speakers. In Cubase you'd set up your mixer to send tracks to the MAIN OUT, and to each individual out if you want them on the Euro mixer as well.

Technically you should use a balanced to unbalanced transformer to connect XLR to RCA, because the MOTU levels will overdrive tape level inputs. Alternatively, you could try just rigging it with an XLR to RCA cable and turn down the MOTU main out in CueMix by at least 10 dB.


From MOTU manual CONTROL SURFACES MENU

• CueMix FX can be controlled from an automated control surface such as the Mackie Control™. Use the commands in the Control Surfaces menu to enable and configure this feature. Share surfaces with other applications. When the Share surfaces with other applications menu command is checked, CueMix FX releases the control surface when you switch to another application.

From Zoom website:

• Mackie control emulation via USB for popular DAW software including Cubase, Logic, Digital Performer and more

Ultimately, I suggest hitting Craigslist or a local studio and pay someone to help for a few hours hands on. Otherwise it will be a month or more faffing around, and you might not get the most out of your system. Using digital gear isn't really any different, all of these items are just digital versions of analog things. You just have to work out the signal flow on a sheet of paper first.

I also offer consulting services if you would like me to draw up a connectivity diagram or two along with correct cabling and Cubase routing for some options.