DP8 announced: 64 bits and available for Windows!

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:39 pm

I am under the impression that wrappers can somewhat compromise the stability of a system, true or false?

bayswater · Post by **bayswater** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:23 pm

Isn't the MAS AudioUnit Support bundle basically a wrapper that lets you use AUs in MAS? And hasn't Waves has always used wrappers?

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:28 pm

I'm not sure( that's partially why I asked) but I was talking about vst wrappers.
I have been under the impression mas plugs are written w/ a different code than AU...... I'm asking ? not stating as fact.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:48 pm

kgdrum wrote:I'm not sure( that's partially why I asked) but I was talking about vst wrappers.
I have been under the impression mas plugs are written w/ a different code than AU...... I'm asking ? not stating as fact.

Yes. AU is a different "club" than MAS.

As for "wrappers", the one major stop-gap in that department was VST Wrapper from Audio Ease, which more or less dried up during the paleo-DP4 era.

But it's important to note that to expect MOTU to wholesale support VST would be like asking Steinberg to support MAS in cooperation. Every developer wants their format to be the standard--- which is why we have so many to start with.

There is an inherent necessity for MOTU to support OSX, which more directly involves Core Audio and Audio Units. To expect them to support VST as well would be (to them) treason-- if you think about it.

MOTU shouldn't be expected to kiss up to Steinberg's standards, nor vice versa.. Developers fairly fully orphaned MAS-- so what's in it for MOTU should they appease those eager for VST?

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:56 pm

could there also be licensing fees & revenue$$ @ stake if a company uses another companies proprietary format ?

Prime Mover · Post by **Prime Mover** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:28 pm

Right.

Also, about AUs, the Audio Units format is based around Core Audio, something that I believe predates Apple's ownership of Logic. So it's not exactly as if AUs are a competitor's format. They are the universal OSX format created by the OS manufacturer, who LATER became a competitor by buying out MOTUs competitor.

As for VSTs... who gives? No commercial VIs/effects are made that aren't AU. There used to be 4 different formats: AU, MAS, VST, and RTAS (not including TDM). After MOTU became AU compatible, it made sense to drop MAS, because a company could still be 100% compatible with all DAWs with 3 formats. Logic and DP (AU) are a SUBSTANTIAL part of the market. Probably comparable to Cubase and Sonar (VST). Dropping AU compatibility would make your plugin incompatible with some 30% of the market.

But ya know what would be interesting? What if MOTU did adopt VST compatibility? It's not unfathomable that it might be a project for DP9. It would really put Apple in a tight spot.

And the stuff that KVR was saying wasn't completely false: Apple has been kinda piss-poor about updating their audio programming. I tried diving into Core MIDI, and it's an absolute horrific mess, and hasn't really been updated since OSXs creation. If their ill attention to AU is anything like CM, then it wouldn't be ridiculous to assume that Steinberg's format (which it continually updates) is better.

spitfire31 · Post by **spitfire31** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:13 pm

Frodo wrote:Developers fairly fully orphaned MAS--

With iZotope as one notable exception, though. My Ozone 4, Ozone 5 and RX 2 Adv. all have MAS versions installed.

My original question about VST support in DP 8 Mac was more out of curiosity – Plogue Bidule wraps all my (few) VST-only plugs just fine.

bayswater · Post by **bayswater** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:33 pm

IIRC, while many VST plugins are available in AU format (perhaps leading to the demise of VST wrappers), there are a lot of VST plugins not compiled for the Mac (a common complaint among Cubase for Mac user who want AU support), I suppose in large part because so many of the Apple DAWs wouldn't be able to use them anyway. Not likely this situation will change unless Logic adopts VST.

Michael Canavan · Post by **Michael Canavan** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:01 am

bayswater wrote: Well, they can't be identical to that degree. The PC version won't work with Audio Units. VST in Mac would be nice, but I can't see why it would be a priority.

Maybe not a priority, but if they and we want easy porting between Mac and PC DP versions then VST on Mac would help a lot. VST PC FX and instruments won't read AU presets or load the AU version of a VST plug in. VST plug ins and FX in cross platform DAWs like Live and Cubase for the most part load VST plug ins and presets just fine. It's simple a matter of porting a saved VST preset and dropping it in the correct folder. I think even better than that most non sample based VSTi's will load the stored tweaks to the plug in into your DAWs memory.

It sucks that a particular DAW company makes the free standard VST, but it's pretty solid these days, a lot more so than it was on OS9. Nightmares of using Pluggo as a wrapper for MAS and crashes etc.

Michael Canavan · Post by **Michael Canavan** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:04 am

bayswater wrote:IIRC, while many VST plugins are available in AU format (perhaps leading to the demise of VST wrappers), there are a lot of VST plugins not compiled for the Mac (a common complaint among Cubase for Mac user who want AU support), I suppose in large part because so many of the Apple DAWs wouldn't be able to use them anyway. Not likely this situation will change unless Logic adopts VST.

That's a pretty good point, but most larger plug in makers have both AU and VST for Mac. In fact I can't think of one plug in I bought that isn't coded for both? I have plenty of free VST and AU plug ins that are only AU or VST though.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:42 am

Just a thought about the "crowded mix bus" comment:

When I read that, my first impression was that the "squeeze" in terms of "size", dynamics and frequency response one encounters when mixing sans sufficient headroom in DP (and I assume all other DAWs), was what was being referred to. Personally, I was stunned when, after ditching the O2R, my first experimental mix in DP sounded pathetic and "small", squeezed out of all life. Obviously I was attempting to replicate the approximate levels I was used to running in the desk in DP. Big mistake.

IMHO, depending upon the instrument, 10-15dB of headroom isn't unrealistic, thus allowing for summing levels and inter-sample peaks. I've no idea whether or not it's a weakness of digital summing or perhaps inter-sample peaks or whatever (probably many factors), but cranking down individual track levels appears to open things up nicely.

Stuartfox · Post by **Stuartfox** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:52 am

roberth909 wrote:All I want is for the crowded sound of the digital mix bus to be addressed, all the rest is a bonus.

Mike Barry has some tips concerning this here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqEH-4skGFk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:26 am

Michael Canavan wrote:
bayswater wrote:IIRC, while many VST plugins are available in AU format (perhaps leading to the demise of VST wrappers), there are a lot of VST plugins not compiled for the Mac (a common complaint among Cubase for Mac user who want AU support), I suppose in large part because so many of the Apple DAWs wouldn't be able to use them anyway. Not likely this situation will change unless Logic adopts VST.
That's a pretty good point, but most larger plug in makers have both AU and VST for Mac. In fact I can't think of one plug in I bought that isn't coded for both? I have plenty of free VST and AU plug ins that are only AU or VST though.

I don't see any need whatsoever for VST in the Mac version of DP.

My real-world experience of "free" VST-only plug-ins and VI's (I have a PC, too) is that they are all crap. I've never found one that was worth anything.

My take - any plug-in or VI worth your time and money is available as AU these days.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:28 am

roberth909 wrote:All I want is for the crowded sound of the digital mix bus to be addressed, all the rest is a bonus.

The interesting thing about this comment, and comments like this in various forums, is that they often come from members who have recently joined, haven't posted anything about how and why they have problems or how to fix them, and then make huge, often incorrect, blanket statements that only attempt to illicit comments that either defend or squash thier claims. This, in turn, feeds their neurosis and they then turn hostile and defensive, dig in, and eventually get booted (or rebooted).

Such comments are often posted either by noobs who don't have a clue how to use the software or the underlying craft involved in efficient use the tools at hand, or sometimes they are posted by disgruntled trolls who have been booted from the site in question.

At best, as per F. Nietzsche, they are alarm clocks. The only useful thing to do is to wind them up and watch them go off...

Time!

David Polich · Post by **David Polich** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:37 am

I forget who it was who made the apt observation on this forum -
"beware the person with a single-digit post number"..

Or something like that.

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