Thoughts about DP on Windows

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:17 pm

First of all, I've been hard on Windows. I don't like it, but I carry a lot of leftover baggage from the 1980s and 1990s during which we Mac users were always the underdogs who knew we used superior equipment and/or software, but had to justify it to clients, bosses, and peers who seemed hell bent on rubbing our noses in their superior numbers and often lower costs (though that was a complex thing that when examined fully, often proved to be the reverse). That said, I think those days are over.

So, let me mention some positive thoughts that have occurred to me, and maybe others will have some, too. One of the best things about this is that it makes DP extremely versatile. You can accept any project on either platform and interface with anyone else. If you want to port it to the Mac side, import it to Windows DP, then simply open it on your Mac. Duh! Couldn't be more simple than that, eh?

Obviously there's the fact that we'll be reaching a larger customer base. Some of those are in the film industry where DP is already a leading DAW. Now, MOTU has made DP interface with its film boxes. The fact that it can do it on either platform is huge. No longer do you have to ask what platform a film project is being created in. No more headaches. Well… at least no more about platform compatibility and imports/exports.

There are probably other reasons to be joyful about this new Windows capability, but I've got to leave some room for responses, ok? What say you, folks? Time to boot-camp our Mac Pros?

Shooshie
(leaving behind my platform bias, and entering a new age of platform agnosticism.)

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:22 pm

Don't forget to mention, brevity! lol
I thought it was a post from Tim

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:54 pm

kgdrum wrote:Don't forget to mention, brevity! lol
I thought it was a post from Tim

Tim? No.

jloeb · Post by **jloeb** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:19 pm

Dunno.

I agree with and am glad for all the compatibility advantages. I especially find sexy the idea of booting MacOS or Windows on the same computer and finding DP there waiting on both sides.

Yet, I preferred Macs before I started using DP (back in the Bronze Age), and when I troubleshoot my relatives' PCs, I am reminded why I prefer Macs still. So there are more than musical reasons to keep my main CPU a Mac.

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:27 pm

Back on topic, I'm still trying to get my head around DP8 being able to port a DP file created on a Mac to a PC & vice versa.....
pretty damn cool!

zuul-studios · Post by **zuul-studios** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:24 pm

I must confess that it was interesting to read some of the responses to the other thread on DP8 and Windows. At work, I use the Windows computers to document the care that I give my patients. I hate it when, three hours into some important and significant charting, the computer locks up or the network fails. It sucks. At home, I hate it when I'm using my happy Mac Pro editing standard definition video (Final Cut Pro) and four hours into the process the freakin' multi-colored soccer ball twirls around for what seems like forever, for no reason at all. It sucks.

I find the argument that one platform is better than another moot. It's a tiring argument that's been really

(And PC users rag on the Mac computers just as much as many Mac users rag on PC computers.)

People make a living on BOTH platforms of computers, both in and outside the musical/video world. Both platforms ain't perfect. Both platforms are also wonderfully productive when configured appropriately.

Now. . . my thoughts of DP on Windows. Good for MOTU! I hope they continue to develop stable hardware and software for both the pros and the hobbyists. I'm really excited about DP8 being 64-bit. My happy Mac Pro, which boots in 64-bit mode, probably won't mind it either. I might even make this Intel-based Mac Pro computer of mine capable of booting in Windows 7 (64-bit) just for the heck of it. It is NICE having choices. It is nice that MOTU is providing choices. I LOVE having choices. In my eyes we all should at least appreciate and respect the opportunity to have choices. For many, having choices in life is a rarity.

And then. . . knowing that we do have choices, we can simply stick to what lends itself to be most helpful to our own personal work-flow. For me, it will most probably be Mac-based. It's not that I consider the Apple platform better than the other. I've been burnt by it working on simple projects. It just that I like the work-flow of the programs that I use. I'm familiar with them. Lately, I've been learning and enjoying DP7. I don't consider DP7 any better or any worse than Logic (and I used to work with Logic PC platform when it was owned by eMagic). But I'm finding that DP7 does provide a nice work-flow that, in the end, serves as a wonderful tool to creating music to video.

I will purchase DP8 if/when it comes out. I will continue to create music working with this tool. Life is good.

So ends my vomiting up my point of view. . . LOL!

Go DP8!!!

Michael Canavan · Post by **Michael Canavan** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:40 pm

Biggest hurdle-
VST- As of now the insinuation is that VST is on the Windows version only. I listened to what Magic D said in the video presentation and he specifically said "on Windows" after mentioning VST.

OK this is a problem. As of DP7 the only way to flatten or print all your AU instrument tracks to audio in one go is with Freeze. I'm not going to bank on frozen DP8 Mac project files porting smoothly to the PC version, it's possible, but unlikely. What DP would need for this to be truly smooth is for there to be a "render all tracks to separate audio" function like you see in Live Logic etc. Hopefully even a function to import them back into the project and keep all your track names etc. What really should happen IMO is DP Mac should also get VST plug in support. I prefer AU for it's IMO superior compatibility with OSX, but for collaborating with PC users VST is the obvious winner here, almost all plug ins that are cross platform port very well.

The downside-
Windows is buggy, not terribly buggy anymore, but it's the fact that so many manufacturers are making PCs and so many consumers are total novices when it comes to searching out bugs in their system caused by crappy hardware choices etc. What this means is MOTU will spend even more resources on support on hardware issues unrelated to DP that end users are blaming DP for, for a platform I'll probably barely use.
-----------------------------
OK the upside to DP8 Windows, and lol yeah I'm going to draw up some archetypes here!
Windows users will have been used to all kinds of things added to the interface that save time, but crafty Mac users have done without etc. Things like snap to grid for MIDI notes, various format conversions, massive choices in the contextual menus, render all tracks to audio, easy intuitive time stretching in the arrangement, less audo glitches when editing while the transport runs etc, the ability to get rid of window clutter -->I'm thinking about how you can't resize and customize theTransport controls etc. There are so many decent free VST plug ins on PC that they won't care at all about new plug ins, so their concerns for future versions
will be about features mainly.
Not all of this will be good, we could see MOTU start in on dumbing down DP, but I doubt that seriously. Very possibly though, Windows users end up being total converts and doubling or tripling the user base for DP making MOTU concentrate on DP even more than they do now!

Mostly I'm personally disappointed not because of what the future of Windows DP brings for DP, but because I was hoping to be blown away with new features in DP8 and instead I think a lot of their resources were tied up getting the Windows version up and running, which at this time will do little for my workflow. Like I said before 64 bit is cool, but we knew that was coming, MOTU had no choice with that. My main machine for years now has been a laptop that maxes out at 4GB, well within 32 bit range, so it's roughly like the Windows version for me, a feature that will help me out I'm sure in a year or two, but as far as right now isn't as useful to me as snap to grid MIDI or gapless audio playback while editing.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:45 pm

There is a bottom line. Getting my work done in an environment I understand. I went from an Apple II, to an Atari, to an Apple and that is where I stayed. I understand Mac and the OS. I do not understand all that much about PCs but can find my way around.

Once the machine is running and an app is loaded, it's pretty much all the same to me except for a few commands here and there.

I also have a lot invested in Mac compatible software and I am not about to abandon that because DP is on a PC. If MOTU does make a bundle on DPPC I hope they plan on improving their tech support. IMO, that is really the weakest part of the organization and the influx of PC owners of DP is not going to make that better without an expanded, robust, and dedicated tech support group. That is something that is of real concern to me and has been for several years now.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:24 pm

Compatibility: Magic Dave said that DP is the same app on either platform. I have to assume that means it comes with the same plugins and will read settings from either side. Waves plugins are also multi-platform. I do not know if their preset libraries are also multi-platform, but I would tend to assume so. We'll have to confirm that with Waves. So, if we stick to the better plugins that are developed for both platforms, chances are that the mix will be compatible on either side.

On the other hand, when I think of compatibility across platforms, I think more of getting the MIDI and audio loaded and imported across. The mix would then be done on one platform, as far as I am concerned. Maybe that's a naive assumption. I'm not a multi-platform guy.

And lastly, everyone is assuming they'll have to buy a PC. You've already got one of the best PC's on the market: a Mac! Boot-camp that sucker and load a Windows partition, and you're in business. My son programs on both sides, and says his Mac is the best PC ever. He especially likes running virtual machines, using one of the PC emulators for Windows. There, you get the added benefit of running them all at the same time, copy/pasting between them, and having some advantages of the Mac interface available to you in Windows. Another added benefit of a virtual PC is that your last session can be recalled merely by double-clicking an icon.

The thing is, I don't know if DP8 will run in an emulator, or if it will run well enough to do a lot. But if you need a quick PC to bring something to the Mac side, the emulator will probably do fine—if the driver thing works itself out between the PC side and the Mac side.

Much to be excited about. Many variables and questions yet to be answered. What format will DP's PC plugins be in? Did they say? Or is that why you all are talking about VST? I need to listen to that video and see what Magic Dave said.

Shooshie

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:36 pm

Good point about Boot Camp! So we may be running DP in a Windows shell and while we're at it, run Sibelius in the same shell and run it in "Finale" mode.

LOL!

Well, I'm afraid now if I do that, will my Mac make use of all 8 cores? Or will I be limited to what the shell is using?

j/k, of course.

bayswater · Post by **bayswater** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:37 pm

Shooshie wrote:And lastly, everyone is assuming they'll have to buy a PC. You've already got one of the best PC's on the market: a Mac! Boot-camp that sucker and load a Windows partition, and you're in business.

Can't imagine why you'd do that as long as there's a Mac version. The only reasons to use a PC (let alone emulate one) is if you already have one, or need a second CPU and want to get something cheap. Even then, when I've looked at a powerful, quiet, properly cooled PC, with parts made by someone I've heard of, and a one year warranty, the price wasn't that much different.

(My iMac stopped working a week after I got it. I took it to the Vancouver Apple store, and asked the "genius" how long it would take to get it sorted out. His answer: I have 15 minutes to get it working or give you a new one. That's worth something)

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:43 pm

A nutter good point. Applecare!

Michael Canavan · Post by **Michael Canavan** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:25 pm

Shooshie wrote: Much to be excited about. Many variables and questions yet to be answered. What format will DP's PC plugins be in? Did they say? Or is that why you all are talking about VST? I need to listen to that video and see what Magic Dave said.

Like I mentioned Dave said in the video that the PC version would run VST, what wasn't said, but implied is that the Mac version as of shipping anyway, will not. What this means to me and you is that it will be best to render all plug ins to audio. VST has some issues cross platform preset wise, but not many, AU presets will not load in Windows VST versions of the same plug in on your PC. This is why many plug in developers adopt their own preset format, it enables a PC user of say Zebra 2 to make a preset and send it to you via email etc. and it loads just fine in the U-He p2p preset format.
Now if the Mac version of DP eventually got VST support it would enable you to work with a PC user and if you owned the same plug ins like Absynth etc. DP would be able to load the PC VST of Absynth and read the preset you sent with the project!

Anyway, it's still safest to print everything to audio, so again, I would love it if MOTU thought about this with DP8 and included a "print all tracks to separate audio files" feature instead of having to mess around with freeze and cluttering up your project etc.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:35 pm

IMHO, the reason for Windows is that with LOGIC being an APPLE program and so easy to purchase, it makes it harder and harder for consumers to purchase DP over Logic. I'm not saying that one is better over the other, but it does make for an uphill battle right there. Sonar does quite well on Windows because DP is Mac only, Logic is Mac only, leaving the only other true sequencer/audio package being Cubase. This will open up a wider base of users and something that, while I think just feels weird because we've only known it to be Mac, is a move they felt would open up a much larger use of customers which means more money to put back into the company. The MOTU hardware sells quite well to Windows users, so why not also provide their DAW software solution too!

kgdrum · Post by **kgdrum** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:40 pm

Brad
It's nice to see you back here.

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