MOTU REALLY needs a demo version

[barreltone]

Personally making decisions on what you do to entice new paying customers, or to help paying customers make the choice to use DP based on pirates IMO is a lose lose scenario.

They --> aren't going away, but paying customers will if all they get online is forum posts about how awkward DP is on places like Gearslutz or KVR and the pretty much awful tutorials on youtube right now. IMO the inability to learn the basic features of a program pre purchase is not a great pirate deterrent but a great paying customer deterrent.

Amen, Michael.

[Michael Canavan]

... and apparently MOTU agrees with me. No demo. No tutorials. No PDF manual.

No name recognition, virtually no people under 30 using it, and little support (drivers for hardware etc.) from the rest of the industry. MOTU seem happy with the established user base, even me who started using it again recently, well I used it first in 1986.
MOTU do seem to be satisfied with where things are, I personally would like to see that change though, as more users means more R&D for DP.

[melenko]

No name recognition, virtually no people under 30 using it, and little support (drivers for hardware etc.) from the rest of the industry. MOTU seem happy with the established user base, even me who started using it again recently, well I used it first in 1986.
MOTU do seem to be satisfied with where things are, I personally would like to see that change though, as more users means more R&D for DP.

That's a fact! I don't understand why?

[FMiguelez]

Not to mention you'll just be feeding the pirates and trolls.

That's exactly my problem.

A few times I have felt this "urge" to create a few nice DP-related Video Tutorials. But knowing that the main audience and the most benefited from this would be pirates, really discourages me from doing it...

It is actually kind of sad, but it remains the truth, never the less.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Not to mention you'll just be feeding the pirates and trolls.

That's exactly my problem.

A few times I have felt this "urge" to create a few nice DP-related Video Tutorials. But knowing that the main audience and the most benefited from this would be pirates, really discourages me from doing it...

It is actually kind of sad, but it remains the truth, never the less.

Apparently you and I and others of like mind appear to be less than appreciated for our position. FWIW, I really don't need a tutorial and could care less about that or a demo version.

[FMiguelez]

.

Definitely.

I would argue that having a DP "lite" or DP demo version would be very good for MOTU's sales and market positioning. It wouldn't necessarily attract pirates, at least not more than what they already have (MOTU would have to make some rule about how long the testing user can run the app, and make sure this lock is not easily circumvented after its expiration date, etc.).

The video tutorials, OTOH, would attract pirates like crazy. Why? Because DP pirates don't have a manual and are semi-crippled without it. So they would jump at any VT they can get their paws on (since it's free, of course).
This site already offers a TREMENDOUS amount of help and information.

OTOH, I admit that, by continuing with the same underlying logic, then we wouldn't have MOTUNation (lest we help the pirates). But at least we can weed them out here. You, I and others have gotten very good at spotting them (with a few embarrassing exceptions on my part ).

If we had a "private" forum on this site, a forum where only legit and VERIFIED users could read/write, then I'd definitely do DP VTs (this would warranty that only legit users, even newbies, benefit from this).

I really enjoy sharing knowledge with people, but it must be the right kind of people (no trolls or pirates).

[Michael Canavan]

Apparently you and I and others of like mind appear to be less that appreciated for our position. FWIW, I really don't need a tutorial and could care less about that or a demo version.

You're already in deep with DP, there's no benefit to you understanding what DP can do.

Again, with no malice whatsoever DP is by far the least represented big DAW. We can say everything we want to about how there's no hard numbers, but a simple look at online forums, magazine polls and articles, chatting with people under 30 in your area who use computers to make or record music, walking into recording studios and just looking at what DAWs are there, and it's flatly obvious that Cubase, Pro Tools, Logic, Live, and even Sonar are more represented and understood.
I seriously do not think that the lack of tutorials is a deterrent for pirates, for quite a few reasons, but this isn't and never was my point, I wasn't even recommending in depth tutorials but more like extended DP overview videos, showing the uniqueness of DP VS Live or Logic etc. What we've got now is a few introduction videos on youtube that are at least 5 years old, and more of a deterrent from buying DP than a selling point. In fact the whole marketing of DP outside of MOTU's site is lacking in every respect.
The problem with this is I think obvious, DP is in the unique and dangerous position of being the largest and most complex OSX only DAW that has the duel edged sword of in house Logic and embedded in recording studios Pro Tools to contend with. In contrast Cakewalks Sonar has Cubase as it's main competition, which presents no direct advantage like Logic or Pro Tools do.

Companies do and have abandoned sequencers in the past. The simple fact is if MOTU do not get new people interested in DP, then there's no incentive for them to invest heavily into DP, which means eventually they see DP as a burden. While an established base of users is a great thing, every company benefits from new users, and to be so terrified that pirates might take advantage of your software that you offer little insight into your software is in my opinion absolutely counter productive.

In counter point to this is the way that Ableton handle pirates. They like MOTU have no iLock etc. they have plenty of tutorials and introductory videos readily available online along with a long slow key protection against piracy that renders the program useless after about 3 months. Long enough for the kid to get addicted to the program. Dozens of times on their forums people admit to being ex pirates who through the shear love of the program coupled with the crippling of it after a few months, learned to respect the developers and become paying customers. Ableton staff if they do comment on this are mostly congratulatory as in "Welcome back from the dark side" etc. In no way do I expect MOTU to adopt this attitude, but it's patently obvious when talking to young people that they think DP is some sort of failed Pro Tools clone only good for film composers.....

Also tutorial wise, there's plenty of help already embedded into DP's Help Menu, as well as a searchable forum or two out there. In fact in simple plain english if someone pirated DP they could if they wanted to get a whole hell of a lot of information out of the Help Menu in DP, which of course an honest possible user interested in DP does not have access to. IMO the basic fact of business marketing is that intentional obscurity doesn't protect your product from being stolen, it just makes your product obscure.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

What's with the obsession with "under 30?" That demographic is often the most self-centered, spoiled brat, tasteless, and rude sliver of society and often the very people who refuse to "buy" music or software. Not always, but often enough. As for myself, I'm happy MOTU doesn't see that as a primary user base that they need to target.

Let 'em use cracked versions of Logic, or PT, or Garageband. I've got plenty of serious stuff to do with DP and that other old world relic, Finale. I'd much rather have a DAW that caters to experienced, knowledgeable, productive customers who know what a book (manual) is for and how to read one without the help of someone leading them by the nose in a tutorial and show them where all the lollipops are hidden.

[Michael Canavan]

What's with the obsession with "under 30?" That demographic is often the most self-centered, spoiled brat, tasteless, and rude sliver of society and often the very people who refuse to "buy" music or software. Not always, but often enough. As for myself, I'm happy MOTU doesn't see that as a primary user base that they need to target.

Quite simply what you're saying is that you're old and young people piss you off. I'm not saying they need to make the under 30 crowd their primary target, just make them a target, at this point DP mostly gets word of mouth from dedicated users and new customers from users of other DAWs, I simply do not see MOTU marketing in the least to new users, whether they're under 30 or not. The only reason to use 30 as a cut off range is because in all likelihood most people just getting into computer based recording and composing are under 30.

Let 'em use cracked versions of Logic, or PT, or Garageband. I've got plenty of serious stuff to do with DP and that other old world relic, Finale. I'd much rather have a DAW that caters to experienced, knowledgeable, productive customers who know what a book (manual) is for and how to read one without the help of someone leading them by the nose in a tutorial and show them where all the lollipops are hidden.

Again, what book or manual is a new customer who is looking at various DAWs going to read for DP? Why on earth would anyone who's just getting into computer based recording or composition choose DP with Logic and Pro Tools given such glaring "advantages" and market dominance? New users are in fact necessary for any business, and again, a few overview videos would be a good start.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Believe what you will... I won't hold inexperience against youth... but laziness, that's something else.

Yes, you must be right: I resent youth. That's why I've spent a good part of my life teaching and mentoring.

Maybe if you're avatar had fewer eyes you might have better vision... or at least some insight.

Oh yeah...





(And stay off my lawn!)

[Michael Canavan]

@MLC,
That was a silly aside, the rest of what I said is not. I in no way want this to degrade into an argument with ad hominem attacks which just lead to zero communication. I'm interested in seeing DP grow market share, and am curious as to why there's this total distrust of modern methods of advertising and marketing here.

I stand by my assertion that overview videos and marketing towards new users is needed if DP is to thrive. I do not in any way see these things as opening up DP to pirates when as I said, pirates can simply open up DPs Help Menu tutorials on all the basics anyway.

Quite honestly I do not get why most people here seem to think that the paper manual is some sort of great pirate deterrent? If MOTU were to tomorrow include a PDF manual in DP8 I would welcome it, as searching by keyword is MUCH faster than attempting to figure out what MOTU call various functions, the index is not very well cross referenced there's little "see page 674 for information on..." That's all in the book itself!
^ I would still want the option to buy the book, but for me a few PDFs on what's new would do when upgrades happen.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I stand by my assertion that overview videos and marketing towards new users is needed if DP is to thrive.

¿And what part of overview is missing here?:

http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Michael Canavan]

I stand by my assertion that overview videos and marketing towards new users is needed if DP is to thrive.

¿And what part of overview is missing here?:

http://www.motu.com/products/software/dp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Already said that MOTU's own site was their best advertising. My point was/is video overviews on youtube etc. would be a great marketing tool. look at any forum, people are more likely to watch a 5 minute video than scour through a great, but densely packed website like MOTU's own. Native Instruments for example have dozens of videos for all their respective products, and few do more than showcase the features.

I know that goes back to laziness, but IMO it's obvious that most people will choose Pro Tools because it's "pro", or Logic because Apple has laced it with magic unicorn dust! Something must be done!

[Michael Canavan]

On this line, MOTU's video for DP Control was a hugely successful marketing tool. Plenty of posts on non DP forums about why DAW X doesn't have anything this cool etc.

[bayswater]

.

Definitely.

I would argue that having a DP "lite" or DP demo version would be very good for MOTU's sales and market positioning. It wouldn't necessarily attract pirates, at least not more than what they already have (MOTU would have to make some rule about how long the testing user can run the app, and make sure this lock is not easily circumvented after its expiration date, etc.).

The video tutorials, OTOH, would attract pirates like crazy. Why? Because DP pirates don't have a manual and are semi-crippled without it. So they would jump at any VT they can get their paws on (since it's free, of course).
This site already offers a TREMENDOUS amount of help and information.

OTOH, I admit that, by continuing with the same underlying logic, then we wouldn't have MOTUNation (lest we help the pirates). But at least we can weed them out here. You, I and others have gotten very good at spotting them (with a few embarrassing exceptions on my part ).

If we had a "private" forum on this site, a forum where only legit and VERIFIED users could read/write, then I'd definitely do DP VTs (this would warranty that only legit users, even newbies, benefit from this).

I really enjoy sharing knowledge with people, but it must be the right kind of people (no trolls or pirates).

I don't think any of this would make any difference to piracy. No manual? Buy (or steal) a 3rd party book on DP. No videos? Get a pirated copy of the excellent videos that are already out there. No demo? Download a disk image and SN from any of a number of sources. Need help? Search this forum.

Demos, videos etc are not going to increase piracy. It's already as easy as it's going to get. What's difficult, is legal access to information required to make a rational purchase decision. Demos, videos, etc would do it make it easier for people who want to decide by legitimate means whether they would like to become a new paid user. And it would make it easier for existing users to help non users who ask questions about DP.

Obviously, those who have been using DP for 20+ years to make a living don't need a demo or a video. That's not who these are for. Consider this: if you are thinking about buying DP, and you don't know anyone with a working setup that is willing to let you play with it to your satisfaction, how do you decide? 1) buy it and write off the price if you don't like it, or 2) "borrow" a copy.

As it is, Motu DP will probably do OK with DP by letting hardware sales drive software sales (like Apple). But I can only see an upside by promoting software sales directly.