ANY NEW REVELATION ON HANGING MIDI NOTES w/ G5 10.4.5/4.61?

pacquito · Post by **pacquito** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:04 am

I noticed that nobody responded to Coalman and Wayne's insightful observations regarding the timing 'groove' or feel of DP. I agree with this and wish that the MIDI timing of DP would be improved. I've noticed more tightness in feel whilst playing back the same MIDI files with either other software programs or machines. Like Coalman said, it is a very subtle thing and hard to track down exactly what's happening but it is crucial.

Overall, DP seems to excel more at audio than it does with MIDI. This tightness factor needs to be addressed and the MIDI timing in terms of triggering external gear or transmitting MIDI sync is dismal. And it seems this is something that has gotten progressively worse with subsequent versions instead of better.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:02 pm

pacquito wrote:I noticed that nobody responded to Coalman and Wayne's insightful observations regarding the timing 'groove' or feel of DP. I agree with this and wish that the MIDI timing of DP would be improved. I've noticed more tightness in feel whilst playing back the same MIDI files with either other software programs or machines. Like Coalman said, it is a very subtle thing and hard to track down exactly what's happening but it is crucial.

Overall, DP seems to excel more at audio than it does with MIDI. This tightness factor needs to be addressed and the MIDI timing in terms of triggering external gear or transmitting MIDI sync is dismal. And it seems this is something that has gotten progressively worse with subsequent versions instead of better.

I can only comment that there must be something you are doing or not doing which is causing you MIDI problems. Could have to do with delay compensation, routing, and monitoring. DP's timing is just about perfect. I once created a test in which I inverted the audio coming from a MIDI instrument and recombined it with another track of the same MIDI data, and it nulled. That was a while back, and I do not remember just how or what I did, but I do remember that it allayed any suspicions of MIDI timing problems.

"Very subtle things" can be quite subjective. Also, DP is a pro DAW which assumes you know what you want, and it does not try to correct user errors. It's easy to get something out of whack through things like input quantize, groove quantizing, delay compensation, randomizing, monitoring through effects, routing through paths that create delays, buffer issues… I'd have to see/hear a demonstration of what you're talking about before attempting a diagnosis, but something tells me that DP's MIDI handling is not the culprit. DP has been the leader in MIDI since practically the beginning, over 25 years ago.

As for the question in your subject heading, asking if any progress has been made on hanging notes since the era of Tiger, the G5, and DP 4.61, the answer is yes. Tiger, by the way, was released on this day (April 29) 6 years ago. Welcome to the present.

Shooshie

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:39 pm

Sorry bur load of crap here. I really think there's sandbagging of DP going on here. DP coupled with a MOTU USB MIDI interface has excellent MIDI timing. This is really getting silly now.

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:42 pm

P.S. Opening up this forum to being indexed by Google and read without people joining first has resulted in a lot of posts by people who really seem not to have done due diligence and post knee-jerk theories. I really need to rethink this and perhaps make MOTUNATION more of a destination for the less-than-casual-- if that makes sense.

pacquito · Post by **pacquito** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:07 am

Sorry guys but I've not posted 'knee jerk theories', have indeed done 'due diligence' with all the trouble-shooting possible and this has nothing to do with user-error. I have about 13 years constant-use, professional experience and I do suspect I'm as 'expert'-level as you are. I wasn't intending any disrespect but was just simply concurring with what I thought were some insightful comments reflecting something I've felt.

Yes, DP's timing is generally excellent but these comments weren't referring to obvious glitches or really out of time playback etc. but more about the subtle feel, groove or tightness of the MIDI playback in best case scenarios - which yes, is a very subtle thing. I know it's a bit of disconcerting topic, but the real knee-jerk reaction is to just say 'oh that's crap, you're crazy, you don't know what you're doing'. It's not that big a deal and I just thought that a little constructive criticism might go towards making a great program even better.

I've felt what these others have stated, and I've even ran A/B tests on musician friends of mine with the same MIDI played back with DP and with something else, and they too those chose the latter. They could hear/feel it too, and the comments were along the lines of for example, 'yeah the hi-hats are rolling nicer on that one' etc. I'm not intending to stir up worry here, and I do apologize for posting it in this thread of a different topic - it just happens to be where I happened to come upon these other comments.

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:17 pm

So far all I've seen is anecdotal evidence presented here. My experience runs contrary and as has been presented by Shooshie here as well, he has tested this and not found evidence of this. It's hard to take seriously because it sounds like the sort of "voodoo" ascribed to cables or external word clocks, etc. Also not sure what version of DP you're running, but MTS is pretty solid with newer MOTU USB interfaces. External MIDI modules can have some variance built in as well.

Bottom line is absent objective tests and supporting data and going on your subjective perceptions of "subtle" differences, it would be irresponsible and foolish to accept your opinion as fact.

pacquito · Post by **pacquito** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:02 pm

Well it's evidently been corroborated upon by the subjective perception of numerous people but yeah, not proven with any objective tests per se. I wouldn't expect anyone to just accept those opinions as fact and of course it's fine if anyone disagrees and finds it to be perfectly good. I just found it interesting to find a few others that had seemed to notice the same thing and was approaching more from a point of theoretical curiosity as opposed to scientifically proving it.

I agree that it is somewhat within the realm of 'voodoo', that maybe it's just in your imagination, and after all it's the same MIDI and these things should be playing exactly the same with 'sample accurate' timing. But it's hardly a new point of discussion as people have often noted different degrees of tightness between various sequencers or say drum machines. And I think it comes down to a certain locked-in feeling that's subtle and hard to track down but seemingly there nonetheless. You could zoom in and note a millisecond here and there but I'm not sure that that would best explain it. I would like to hear some other people's views on apparent discrepancies in feel between different sequencers.

In terms of versions, it's something I've noted in various configurations throughout the years including recent internal bounce downs with software samplers and also, as stated by Coalman and Wayne, back when I used Reason I would notice a difference between the way it sounded within Reason in comparison to being triggered by DP. A more recent subjective comparison was with an actual hardware drum machine. And yes, I think I've done it with a generally conscientious effort to experiment with settings and setups.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:34 pm

What puzzles me is that this thread was resurrected on 29 April 2011 for the first time since 25 March 2006.

Maybe it's not clear, but any troubleshooting is impossible to determine with so many years hanging in the balance to reconcile what was going on with 10.3.9 and 10.4.6 when the criticism on 29 April 2011 was that "...MOTU needs to improve...".

There have been plenty of improvements since 25 March 2006 with hardware and software updates. To criticize DP today based on info from 5 years ago is highly suspect. For the record, DP 7.2x in 10.6.7 work superbly and is stable... and I've had the stuck note problem in the distant past but conquered it. That said, other users have had problems with the latest combo of DP, OSX, and Intel Macs. That doesn't mean that those problems are widespread, but things really do crop up without malice. People will have questions. The problem is that those questions get lost when they arrive in the form of mere complaints.

If someone is having trouble with stuck notes now, we need more specific info on the symptoms as they pertain to what's available and in use *today* in order to be constructive and pro-active. These days, this problem really is the exception and not the rule if the most recent discussions on the topic must date back to 2006. That's just not a fair basis on which to sustain a discourse on the state of how well DP works. If there is more contemporary info supporting unusual problems, it has yet to be cited.

If solutions are the topic, count me in. Problems of any kind do indeed exist, but the same can be said for solutions.

I only hope that the rules and the exceptions are not being confused here.

HCMarkus · Post by **HCMarkus** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:48 pm

When it comes to the "feel" thing, an important factor is whether the user has fine tuned Audio and MIDI relative timing. DP provides for these adjustments both for record and playback. I would encourage anyone who is concerned with feel to check his or her system and make sure Audio and MIDI are lining up exactly.

I would also encourage anyone who questions DP's feel to run a few tests with MIDI tracks ported to different DAWs and recorded as audio, then compared side by side with DP tracks produced using the same sound module or VI and post your findings.

IMHO, anyone who claims timing "feel" cannot be measured objectively is running the risk of violating this board's prescription against religious debate.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:54 pm

I'm sorry, but if the OP wants to criticize 6 year old versions of DP and OSX, he's on his own. To do that, I'd have to set up an old computer from the warehouse. Not going to happen.

Timing issues leave easily visible evidence. It's possible to devise tests that show -- on a timeline -- the differences between two MIDI passes. If he wants to create such a test and show us, visibly, what he's talking about, and if he delineates his steps so that we can duplicate the test easily and corroborate the problem, then and only then will I be convinced that he's seeing a problem in DP.

It's like the old pianist myth that a real pianist can always tell the difference between even ONE NOTE struck by a concert artist vs. the same note struck at the same volume by a machine (Disklavier). The truth of that is that no, they cannot tell the difference. Nor can they tell the difference when the Disklavier records a phrase and plays it back, vs. the artist playing it back. Subjectivity is what it is; imagination.

To hear the hi-hats always being "tighter" in one DAW as opposed to another, there will be visible evidence as well as audible evidence. Any difference is measurable. I've used the "magic button" effect on clients (in last-ditch desperation, I assure you) enough times to know that subjectivity can create mountains where there is not even a molehill. I've seen it work in audiophiles -- who should be extremely objective, but who can "hear" unmeasurable differences in cables or blocks of wood on top of an amplifier. To top it off, I've experienced the very same thing in myself! I'm not immune.

That is why "very subtle things" require measurement, to eliminate the subjectivity effect. Well, if the OP wants to update to the current version of everything, including drivers, then I'll work with him on such a test, but it's not going to happen over 6 year old versions. Who knows what drivers he's using? Way too many variables. I'm not going there.

Shooshie

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:03 pm

Shooshie wrote:I'm sorry, but if the OP wants to criticize 6 year old versions of DP and OSX, he's on his own.

Just for the record, it wasn't the OP who himself started the thread in 2006.

I strongly agree with you that a discussion in 2011 of what MOTU needs to improve based on 2006 info is a lesson in futility.

fsheinfeld · Post by **fsheinfeld** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:15 pm

I just saw this thread. There a whole new thread about this regarding DP 7.22, not sure why this one is even alive...

If you guys have any suggestions please post on the more current one, otherwise it gets too confusing and this a long and complicated issue.

Like some said, no point on discussing about DP 4 and this is a really important and big issue on DP 7.22.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:58 pm

Frodo wrote:
Shooshie wrote:I'm sorry, but if the OP wants to criticize 6 year old versions of DP and OSX, he's on his own.
Just for the record, it wasn't the OP who himself started the thread in 2006.

I strongly agree with you that a discussion in 2011 of what MOTU needs to improve based on 2006 info is a lesson in futility.

Oops! My mistake. I had forgotten that it was an old thread.

pacquito · Post by **pacquito** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:03 pm

I don't think you guys quite get it. I wasn't saying that it was some inexplicable mystical thing that can't be observed objectively. Quite the contrary, I have spent a lot of time zoomed in checking out waveforms, comparing transient start points, measuring the differences, noting patterns, etc. The question was not whether the variance was verifiable as it obviously can be but more why there are these variances between sequencers. For example, a software engineer might be able to give explanations.

The subjective tests were mainly playing back audio files of the same MIDI triggered by different sequencers to some other musicians and asking them what they thought. As far as I'm concerned I can just hear it and I know if there's something different about the timing. If you don't hear or see any issue then good. I know that results vary based on the interface, how your system is set up etc. This was considering the results based on relatively optimal performance.

As far as this original thread being old or discussing previous versions - I wasn't that worried about that distinction because I find this aspect hasn't really changed that significantly and I wasn't necessarily referring to older versions. Hey, just forget I said anything, Dp is fine. I still think it's the best daw. And if you really want to get critical about it you can always just chop the resultant audio file and precisely move the soundbites.

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