Reaper user ripping off DP's Producer theme?

[FMiguelez]

Maybe the Reaper user will name his theme "mo-ducer"...

Or more like MO-Ripped

Or it would be actually MO-Reapped...

[benmrx]

I'm not bashing Reaper here.

No.. you didn't, but some other posters here did...

As far as Reaper being $60 for non-commercial use, that's certainly true. However they let you download a fully functioning app and then paying for it is on the HONOR SYSTEM. Henceforth, it is my contention that a good deal of their user base has likely not paid for the app.

True.... but I would argue that a large user base of anything made with 1's and 0's has a user base that hasn't paid for it. FWIW, I don't think the guy (maybe there's 2.. I'm not sure) that make Reaper aren't in it for the money. They know people will pirate the program no matter what kind of price/protection they use.

[IAMLFO]

Seriously? As both a DP user and a Reaper user I have to laugh out loud at the amount of misinformation being trolled in this thread.

FMiguelez - you have obviously not spent a single minute with Reaper and therefore your opinion is based on no knowledge or insight and therefore should be considered null and void. Try looking into a topic before posting biased opinions based on *zero* information. You discredit yourself.

David and Adriano, see the above, it applies to you both also.

James and Sooshie, as usual you keep a fair and balanced approach to situations. I don't always agree, as in this case, but I can see that you both have reasonable approaches. To be honest I think `elevating' the request for graphics to MOTU and Cockos is extreme. However, I do understand your position and you have every right to follow through as you see fit. To the outside world it seems overly defensive, kind of like the Sound on Sound article reaction was/is, but certainly within your rights and respected by at least myself. As I've mentioned on both GS and the Reaper forum, the MOTU forum is full of great folks.

A bit about Reaper....

I went into the Reaper world out of pure curiosity. The app's market share is growing faster than most established DAWs. I wondered why so I took a look. What I found was very interesting.

First of all, the concept that Reaper users think that everything should be for free is completely off base. The payment system is honor based and many (most?) Reaper users pay for the DAW. Some, like myself, have paid for it twice (once of PC, once for Mac) though I did not need to. I see the value and I'm willing to support the effort. No one on the forum expects anything for free anymore than people do on this forum that contribute to the Free Plug-ins thread.

The second mis-conception is that because Reaper is less expensive than other DAWs then it must be a piece of crap. Again, purely and insanely wrong. Cockos is penetrating a saturated market and the price is helping them grow market share very quickly. That is what I call sound business strategy. Will the price go up in the future? Maybe, dunno. Only time will tell. To expect a high price has anything to do with software quality is ridiculous. Logic anyone?

Reaper is much more open source oriented than any other DAW. For some crazy reason users of other DAWs think this is a *bad* thing! Say what? So, getting all sorts of add-ons for your DAW (I.E. Firefox) is a bad thing? Really? Hmmmmmm.... I find it interesting that people look at Reaper users with disdain because `they expect everything for free' while the Reaper community is more busy improving their product than any other DAW out there. Which is it? Are they free loaders or productive, contributing users?

On a side note, some of the add-ons for Reaper are very cool. What is even cooler is that Reaper is built to be an open platform so that you *can* write add-ons. Again, how is that supposed to be a bad thing? It is the open source mindset and frankly a superior mindset. People who look at it with disdain just don't get it. Or fear it. Or know they wouldn't be able to contribute to it.

To say that Reaper is a `toy' is laughable. Again, an ignorant statement by someone who obviously has not spent a second with the program. People look at screenshots and because the DAW is not quite as flashy as DP, Logic or Cubase they immediately think `toy'. What open minds. Why do you think Reaper is so skinnable? You can change *anything* in Reaper. Anything can have a key command assigned to it. Anything can be graphically altered. The menu system can be completely changed. It is entirely and utterly flexible. Does that sound like a toy?

Reaper can be run from a flash drive. I can take my entire DAW, customizations and everything, everywhere with me on a 1 gig flash drive and still have 98% space available on the flash drive. Try that with any other DAW. (Both Mac and PC, BTW.) I've run Reaper off of the flash drive on a friends notebook with no performance degradation.

Many people harp on Reaper for not having advanced MIDI functions. It doesn't...yet. However, there is no company more responsive to customer requests and no company that provides updates faster than Cockos. MIDI is *very* usable, I've used everything from a NI synth to EWQL products just fine with it and I look forward to more features in the future.

So people get all fired up about the MIDI side and therefore ignore what is truly an amazing audio side to the DAW. There is *no* DAW out there with more flexible routing, their concept of having only one track type is terrific and the goal of having no tools, though it sounds strange, really makes a whole lot of sense.

Other features that other DAWs could learn from Reaper include:

Navigation (Yes, navigation. You won't understand unless you try it. Better yet, go see Kenny's free tutorial on Reaper navigation at groove3.com )
Grid and Snap To Features
Cross Fading Options
Track and Virtual Instrument Templates
Low Resource Requirements
Snappy Performance
Customer Support! (times 100) No other DAW provides a Bug Tracking Forum like Reapers. No other DAW provides transparency to what is being considered from the Feature Request forum. The users take making feature requests seriously, with graphs, graphics, etc. to support their requests. They do this because they *see* the Cockos staff reviewing and commenting and sometimes elevating feature requests. There is no black box that feature requests go into.
Preferences and Template Options More useful options than I could ever think of. Templates for projects, tracks, even VIs.

I could go on. Now to be fair and to prove I'm not a fanboy, here are some areas that need improvement:

Multiple takes - kludgy right now

Advanced MIDI functions - There are several user requests that have been elevated by the Cockos team in this area. One of them is a tabbed MIDI environment for multiple MIDI parts that is the result of multiple user collaboration. Genius. Hopefully it will be a part of upcoming Reaper 4

No Drum Editor

Mouse Usage Need Improvement

If you haven't taken a look at Reaper it is well worth it. Yes, the Reaper crowd is different. Reason being they are in a different world where everything is open and shared. So when a Reaper user comes to this forum asking for a full sized screenshot of the DP interface I can see why feathers would get ruffled. From the Reaper UI developers point of view he is serving you a compliment. Reaper users like what MOTU has done and want to emulate it. Should graphics just be copied and pasted into a Reaper theme? No, probably not. But if it is does it really matter that much? I mean, is it causing real harm? A theme is made and a couple of hundred people will use it. Does this translate into any impact whatsoever in MOTUs revenue? Absolutely not. On the other side of the coin, does someone have the right to take the graphic work of another company and use it? No. I don't believe that is Adam's intention, though I could be wrong. If I understand correctly, he wanted the graphics for reference, but from what I read, and I very well could have missed something, he would be modifying the graphics to his purposes. Time will tell.

I'd apologize for using words like ignorant, etc. but I'm not going to. If the shoe fits, wear it. For the individuals I pointed at in those terms I challenge you to take some time (not 5 minutes or an hour)and use the program. You will find that you were very off base.

-Kevin

[FMiguelez]

FMiguelez - you have obviously not spent a single minute with Reaper and therefore your opinion is based on no knowledge or insight and therefore should be considered null and void. Try looking into a topic before posting biased opinions based on *zero* information. You discredit yourself.

I've never said I've used Reaper. I wouldn't waste my time with it.
I've seen it's pictures and screenshots and read some reviews. That's much more than I need to know.
I know a TOY when I SEE ONE.

Besides, I'm bashing Reaper because:
- I find it almost funny that one of their users comes here to lift from us.
- I am still offended SOS gave us the boot in order to make room for this new and amateurish DAW. I mean, getting rid of a DAW like DP, a pioneer, with all its user base, all its tradition, only to make an app for kids and sound-block organizers is pretty insulting....
- It's user base, a majority, represents everything that is wrong in this "market place" and economy. I mean, PAY if you WANT to??? It must have the biggest PIRATE user base of any DAW out there.

No. I have no hard facts, numbers or pie charts to prove this, but do you really have to? Isn't it pretty obvious? It's common sense!

I don't have charts and numbers, but one doesn't need to be a genius to know that most Reaper users won't or haven't payed for it. Not even if it's laughable cheap.
It is the perfect DAW for music pirates, which I hate with all my soul.

If you don't like what I'm writing, then don't read it. But don't expect me to waste my time with this app just to be "more knowledgeable" about it... like if I cared about it in the first place.

I can understand its users being used to getting their DAW for free, if they don't have $60 bucks to spare, but they want everything for free too. Now they want to lift MOTU's and Andy's themes?

Oh, WAIT! Perhaps if I spent time with Reaper I will finally see the light and discover what an AMZING pice of software Reaper is!

I will ask James for my MOTUNation refund, I will burn all my DP manuals and copies, and I will become the best I can be with.... REAPER!

Ok, MOTU. Good bye. I found a much better DAW.

[IAMLFO]

I'm not bashing Reaper here. But my position is that if the Reaper guy wants to copy a DP theme he should have to do it the old fashioned way and do it from scratch in Photoshop by looking at the theme.

I made a conscious decision that I wasn't going to use this board to HELP him. As it is he's already posted that he obtained a copy of DP somehow and is digging into the Producer bundle and using the graphics to copy DP's producer theme for Reaper. Worse than that he's put the theme bundle online for those who don't own DP to access. Whether it's the entire app or just part, I'm pretty sure that putting parts of commercial software online for anyone to download is illegal. Hence I deleted him.

As far as Reaper being $60 for non-commercial use, that's certainly true. However they let you download a fully functioning app and then paying for it is on the HONOR SYSTEM. Henceforth, it is my contention that a good deal of their user base has likely not paid for the app.

I can see how you would not want to enable the production of the theme. However, outright deleting him doesn't do anything but make MOTUNation look bad. Why not just tell him, `Sorry, we aren't going to help you do that, we don't agree with what you are doing.' and leave it at that? What good did banning him do? Do you think it sends out a positive anti-piracy message? It didn't. Sadly, it just made MOTUNation look unfriendly.

What you say about the Reaper community paying for the product is true, but is a very glass is half empty view. I don't argue the fact that many, probably upwards of 40 - 50% of users (my guess, no data there) don't ever pay. However, in the glass is half full view, there are lots of users that do pay and are very active in contributing to the development of the product. Whether that is through theme creation, add-on creation, or just making feature requests. I've not seen so much participation and interaction with the developers with any other product.

Cockos has a core of three main developers. Justin Frankle is the founder and he made a couple of hundred million selling WinAmp to AOL. He has no real need for money. The other two main guys are not so wealthy. Cockos is a business and they do want to make money, however Justin has a unique view on software development being a form of self-expression and a way to contribute to the world at large. He resigned from AOL because AOL was driving decisions solely on profits and that did not sit well with him.

Hence, I don't think money is the top priority at Cockos. At the same time, you are reminded by a dialog box to pay for the software every time you open it until the software is registered.

-Kevin

[FMiguelez]

I don't argue the fact that many, probably upwards of 40 - 50% of users (my guess, no data there) don't ever pay.

You complain about me talking out of my arse and making suppositions?

Where are YOUR facts? Did you have a chat with the CEO and he told you this?

And that random number you gave up there is a pretty bad guess anyway... If people who MUST pay for something don't, what makes you think they will pay if they don't have to???

I think it's more like 5% who pay for it (based on current piracy trends).

[IAMLFO]

FMiguelez - you have obviously not spent a single minute with Reaper and therefore your opinion is based on no knowledge or insight and therefore should be considered null and void. Try looking into a topic before posting biased opinions based on *zero* information. You discredit yourself.

I've never said I've used Reaper. I wouldn't waste my time with it.
I've seen it's pictures and screenshots and read some reviews. That's much more than I need to know.
I know a TOY when I SEE ONE.

Besides, I'm bashing Reaper because:
- I find it almost funny that one of their users comes here to lift from us.
- I am still offended SOS gave us the boot in order to make room for this new and amateurish DAW. I mean, getting rid of a DAW like DP, a pioneer, with all its user base, all its tradition, only to make an app for kids and sound-block organizers is pretty insulting....
- It's user base, a majority, represents everything that is wrong in this "market place" and economy. I mean, PAY if you WANT to??? It must have the biggest PIRATE user base of any DAW out there.

No. I have no hard facts, numbers or pie charts to prove this, but do you really have to? Isn't it pretty obvious? It's common sense!

I don't have charts and numbers, but one doesn't need to be a genius to know that most Reaper users won't or haven't payed for it. Not even if it's laughable cheap.
It is the perfect DAW for music pirates, which I hate with all my soul.

If you don't like what I'm writing, then don't read it. But don't expect me to waste my time with this app just to be "more knowledgeable" about it... like if I cared about it in the first place.

I can understand its users being used to getting their DAW for free, if they don't have $60 bucks to spare, but they want everything for free too. Now they want to lift MOTU's and Andy's themes?

Oh, WAIT! Perhaps if I spent time with Reaper I will finally see the light and discover what an AMZING pice of software Reaper is!

I will ask James for my MOTUNation refund, I will burn all my DP manuals and copies, and I will become the best I can be with.... REAPER!

Ok, MOTU. Good bye. I found a much better DAW.

Wow. In all my years, this is the most ignorant post I've every read. Congrats!

You know its a toy, because you have looked at screenshots? Lol! Really? Good thing Amiga users and Cakewalk DOS users didn't have the same attitude.

That is such a ridiculous statement it goes beyond words.

You are still `offended' by the SOS article thing? This says a great deal about you. Get over it! Did the SOS staff come to your house and say `Nah-nah-nah-nah we're dumping the DP article!' You really need to learn to not sweat the small stuff dude. Lol!

You are the most dangerous kind of person there is. One with high, overly strong opinions on something you know nothing, and I mean absolutely *nothing* about! You are right:

- You haven't used the program
- You have zero data to support anything you've said
- You make assumptions to prove your points
- You have not listened to Reaper made music because you assume it is all `sound-block organizers' when that could not be further from the truth! (For,um, example all the ORCHESTRAL WORK I've done in Reaper!)
- You can't figure out (knock, knock, McFly?!) that Reaper users don't expect anything for free.

Wow. I'd say you are dumb &*@!&*$%, but I won't because that would be a banning offense.

You, sir, are a dinosaur. Thank God most people don't think like you or we would still be banging rocks together to make music.

Funny how you say that Reaper represents everything wrong with this `marketplace' and everything it stands for. Do you mean other companies with the same business model like, say, for instance, Google, Facebook and LinkedIn? All failures and all a menace to caveman economists!

BTW, I don't like software pirates either. I made my living writing software for years. Even turned in a firm that I provided computers to for pirating 123 back in the day. But I don't hate them with all my soul. Again, your true colors are disturbing and sad, at best.

My suggestion is this. Chill. Take a look around and realize that it is 2010. Then realize that not everyone (Again, thank God) doesn't think like you and that is not a bad thing. Open you mind a little bit. Just a little so it doesn't hurt too much. Figure out that truth is much more important than factless based opinion. Learn that holding grudges over minutia and hatred in your heart will only make you miserable.

-Kevin

[Michael Canavan]

I'm sort of baffled why you guys care?
No offense to anyone, but themes probably aren't copyrightable, and MOTU blatantly ripped off Pro Tools theme in the packaged DP7.2 release, so it's not like it's not happening even on the corporate level. Reaper will not sell more copies because they jacked a theme from DP, and DP will still be a better DAW for the crowd that need it's features.
That's about as much energy as I can muster on this non-issue.

[IAMLFO]

I don't argue the fact that many, probably upwards of 40 - 50% of users (my guess, no data there) don't ever pay.

You complain about me talking out of my arse and making suppositions?

Where are YOUR facts? Did you have a chat with the CEO and he told you this?

And that random number you gave up there is a pretty bad guess anyway... If people who MUST pay for something don't, what makes you think they will pay if they don't have to???

I think it's more like 5% who pay for it (based on current piracy trends).

Nope, it was in an article in either SOS or Electronic Musician or one of those. It surprised me at the time as I was not a Reaper user, but it did peak my curiosity. So, no, nothing from my arse, it came from a music industry magazine.

Really, a bad guess? And you can support that how exactly? Look, from your post it is obvious that you live in a cave somewhere, (or maybe under a bridge) but the concept of freeware and shareware have been going strong for almost two decades. I mean really? How could you be on the Internet at all and not know this? It really shows what blinders you have on. You are not interested in the truth, you are only interested in your non-informed opinions.

By the way, that 5% `based on piracy trends' is such a crock! Lol! Where did you pull that one out of? You might have said `5% based on the mating habits of elephants'. One more suggestion. Go look up the term Shareware and Google (you do know what Google is, right?) and do some research.

-Kevin

[IAMLFO]

I'm sort of baffled why you guys care?
No offense to anyone, but themes probably aren't copyrightable, and MOTU blatantly ripped off Pro Tools theme in the packaged DP7.2 release, so it's not like it's not happening even on the corporate level. Reaper will not sell more copies because they jacked a theme from DP, and DP will still be a better DAW for the crowd that need it's features.
That's about as much energy as I can muster on this non-issue.

Great points all Michael! *raising a cold one to you*

-Kevin

[FMiguelez]

Wow. I'd say you are dumb &*@!&*$%, but I won't because that would be a banning offense.

Don't worry. I feel the exact same way about you.

Do you really expect me to waste my time with this toy? To prove what, exactly? To see that it does a few of the things I can do with DP?
If you are so happy with Reaper, what are you doing here anyway?

All your idiotic writing sounds as nonsensical to me as mine does to you.
So I think you are an idiot, just like you think I'm one.

Damn! I hope I can sleep at night with all this worry about you thinking that of me...

[FMiguelez]

My suggestion is this. Chill. Take a look around and realize that it is 2010. Then realize that not everyone (Again, thank God) doesn't think like you and that is not a bad thing. Open you mind a little bit. Just a little so it doesn't hurt too much. Figure out that truth is much more important than factless based opinion. Learn that holding grudges over minutia and hatred in your heart will only make you miserable.

You are so comical and entertaining

And what exactly are those "truths" you speak of?

You have all the answers and you know everything... it must be so good to be like you

[James Steele]

I deleted Adam for exactly the reason that he was distributing MOTU's intellectual property without authorization. When you place binaries that are part of COMMERCIAL SOFTWARE like an official MOTU theme on a file hosting site for people who are not licensed users of that software to download, you are engaging in something very much akin to software piracy. We have a zero tolerance policy for that and it's made quite clear.

I don't care if the Reaper community thinks it's "friendly" or not. This board is not here for the benefit of Reaper users. All DAWs have strengths and weaknesses. One of DP's strengths these days is its GUI. Improvements to the GUI are as much a result of the efforts of this user community as the efforts of MOTU itself. We have made many a post and lobbied MOTU and fought long and hard to get to this point of having one of the best looking DAWs on the marketplace. People like Andy Selby created amazingly beautiful themes and helped nudge MOTU to make such a complete turnaround.

So then Adam shows up and wants us to just hand over the keys to the kingdom to him? After we struggle, plead, cajole to get to this GUI, we're supposed to just hand it over to Reaper users and sing "Kumbaya" in our nice little open source world. I don't think so.

Look, the Cuckos guys want to take marketshare from OUR app by both giving it away (because they know some people won't pay) or by undercutting established players like MOTU. If they're playing hardball like that... And they have already had a victory here with getting a monthly SOS feature while SOS has relegated DP to every other month... WHY ON EARTH would you expect DP users to LIFT A FINGER to help Reaper users ASSIMILATE one of the features of DP that's superior to Reaper?

REAPER is the BORG of the DAW world. I do not wish to be assimilated.

[James Steele]

I'm sort of baffled why you guys care?
No offense to anyone, but themes probably aren't copyrightable, and MOTU blatantly ripped off Pro Tools theme in the packaged DP7.2 release, so it's not like it's not happening even on the corporate level. Reaper will not sell more copies because they jacked a theme from DP, and DP will still be a better DAW for the crowd that need it's features.
That's about as much energy as I can muster on this non-issue.

Great points all Michael! *raising a cold one to you*

-Kevin

Well of course you would-- he's agreeing with you.

Distributing a binary that is part of a commercial app is not benign and that is what Adam has done by posting the theme online for everyone to download and for the Reaper Collective to pick apart and assimilate. I think long exposure to the open source philosophy of Reaper might be why Adam doesn't understand that he can post portions of commercial software online for others to download.

And the bottom line here is that as Site Admin for the largest, oldest Digital Performer user forum on the Internet, Adam essentially placed me in the position of having to decide whether I wanted to ASSIST him and the Reaper Collective through the use of this board to obtain themes to port to Reaper. I chose not to. IS IT REALLY ALL THAT HARD TO FATHOM WHY I WOULD'NT? Please. Get real.

[IAMLFO]

I deleted Adam for exactly the reason that he was distributing MOTU's intellectual property without authorization. When you place binaries that are part of COMMERCIAL SOFTWARE like an official MOTU theme on a file hosting site for people who are not licensed users of that software to download, you are engaging in something very much akin to software piracy. We have a zero tolerance policy for that and it's made quite clear.

I don't care if the Reaper community thinks it's "friendly" or not. This board is not here for the benefit of Reaper users. All DAWs have strengths and weaknesses. One of DP's strengths these days is its GUI. Improvements to the GUI are as much a result of the efforts of this user community as the efforts of MOTU itself. We have made many a post and lobbied MOTU and fought long and hard to get to this point of having one of the best looking DAWs on the marketplace. People like Andy Selby created amazingly beautiful themes and helped nudge MOTU to make such a complete turnaround.

So then Adam shows up and wants us to just hand over the keys to the kingdom to him? After we struggle, plead, cajole to get to this GUI, we're supposed to just hand it over to Reaper users and sing "Kumbaya" in our nice little open source world. I don't think so.

Look, the Cuckos guys want to take marketshare from OUR app by both giving it away (because they know some people won't pay) or by undercutting established players like MOTU. If they're playing hardball like that... And they have already had a victory here with getting a monthly SOS feature while SOS has relegated DP to every other month... WHY ON EARTH would you expect DP users to LIFT A FINGER to help Reaper users ASSIMILATE one of the features of DP that's superior to Reaper?

REAPER is the BORG of the DAW world. I do not wish to be assimilated.

James, you are missing the point. I certainly don't expect DP users to lift a finger to help Reaper users, no more than I would expect Cubase users to help DP users. Did you ask Adam what his intentions were or did you assume he was simply trying to steal because he is a Reaper user? Maybe he wanted to use the full screenshot for reference, button sizes, RBG used, etc. What good did outright banning him do instead of just explaining why you won't provide the screenshots and telling him if he pushes the issue that he will get banned? All your actions did was make MOTUNation look bad. What good did that do?

Do you think Cockos went to SOS and `bullied' DP out so that it could be included in SOS? I have no idea if they did or not, but given the company philosophy and the well documented attitudes of Justin I would say that is a stretch. I'm willing to bet that SOS made a content decision based upon its understanding of its userbase. Unfortunately, it meant bad news for DP users. Has anyone asked SOS why they made the change? If so, what was the response?

-Kevin