Ext Word Clocks - No point unless syncing other digital gear

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James Steele
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Re: Ext Word Clocks - No point unless syncing other digital

Post by James Steele »

Well when you start the post with "... it's always possible..." then who am I to argue that. I think the biggest problem with these threads is you cannot PROVE what someone says they hear or don't hear. And I'm not saying in the example you give that you don't hear it. But the ridiculous obsessing on some forums over details that may or may not have any bearing or be audible in the end. What percentage of people who make claims online that they can hear minute differences in audio do you suppose would actually pass a double blind test and pick out the correct source with a success rate high enough to prove it is better than random guessing? I'm suggesting probably very few.

It very well be program dependent. What if found interesting though is the relationship between the brain and our sense of hearing and psychoacoustics. This is hard-wired. You cannot consciously override it or turn it off. This explains things like "expectation bias" and why you 100% absolutely will hear a difference in certain situations. The real proof in the pudding is to be able to pick these things out with accuracy in a controlled test situation.

I think perhaps the minimum takeaway for this is that few people are so have so mastered the craft of composition or songwriting that their time isn't better spent on polishing the piece of music itself, rather than obsessing on these sorts of details, and to prioritize.

I once had a disagreement with a house engineer at a local club. He didn't think my headset mic "technically" sounded as good as a decent stand mic. No argument there. But there were priorities. I can tell you that the certainly nobody in the club would know the difference. But because I play guitar while I sing, the headset allows me to be more interactive with the audience... go do different parts of the stage and sing. I'm not having to run back to a central spot on the stage all the time. Plus, on perhaps a subconscious level, a mic stand was barrier between myself and an audience. Singers who don't play an instrument can use a wireless handheld and they don't have this issue, but singing instrumentalists do. Bottom line was that the first night I used the wireless headset, my performance and ability to interact was so much better that audience thought it sounded better. I had people tell me it sounded better than ever. However, it was probably just that the performance was better and more engaging and that colored their perception. All in all, the benefits far outweighed the terrible, terrible reduction in quality going from an AKG headset to a Sennheiser handheld mic. :roll:

Just saying... one has to prioritize. There's a whole industry built on selling the idea that you just can't make music unless you have XYZ guitar or XYZ speakers. Many people are advanced and discriminating that it can make a difference, but it should never be used as a reason NOT to create.
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Re: Ext Word Clocks - No point unless syncing other digital

Post by tomeaton »

I'm 100% with you, James. Performance trumps all. I run a commercial studio... I need to have my technical ducks in a row. I think gear-sluttery is a huge diversion to people who should be writing better songs, practicing, improving their own art...

I've been posting for years over at ProSoundWeb about this exact problem. I want every artist to have a cassette four track and a 58. The less technical the process of getting ideas down, the more you can concentrate on the ideas. The industry (MI industry, that is) sees dollar signs in convincing joe-musician that they can and should record their work at home. I mean, of course, a million musicians buying a $100 microphone is way better than 500 studios buying a $1000 microphone. And on and on.

Let's be clear, as I tried to be at the end of my last post:

Most of this stuff is not a BIG deal. Most of it is audible if you learn what to listen for (which is an essential part of any ABX test), but it will not make your songs better, or your voice, or your chops.

And, like I said... I'd be happy to put up two files for y'all to listen to; the same 24 bit file pulled to 16bit with two dither flavors.

tom
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Re: Ext Word Clocks - No point unless syncing other digital

Post by James Steele »

tomeaton wrote:And, like I said... I'd be happy to put up two files for y'all to listen to; the same 24 bit file pulled to 16bit with two dither flavors.
I'd love to hear that, Tom! I'm afraid thought that maybe I'll be one of those people who may not be blessed with the hearing or room acoustics to spot it... dunno.

Don't go get cute with us and put up two exact same files and then laugh as some right in that they can definitely hear a difference. :lol:
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Re: Ext Word Clocks - No point unless syncing other digital

Post by Shooshie »

James Steele wrote:
tomeaton wrote:And, like I said... I'd be happy to put up two files for y'all to listen to; the same 24 bit file pulled to 16bit with two dither flavors.
I'd love to hear that, Tom! I'm afraid thought that maybe I'll be one of those people who may not be blessed with the hearing or room acoustics to spot it... dunno.

Don't go get cute with us and put up two exact same files and then laugh as some right in that they can definitely hear a difference. :lol:

Ho HO! Someone like ME! With MY ears and MY equipment, why I can hear the difference between two identical tracks of audio! I don't put any stock in that ol' science and acoustics BS. Why, I use my natural-born earbones to tell me which file is playing: File A or File B. I've got $10,000 AC cables, that's my secret. Pure unadulterated audio from the wall current. And Brilliant Pebbles taped around each end with audiophile-quality, electro-acoustically absorbant Duhck Tape, and Kool charcoal filters…

Ok, ok… so I watched the audio workshop on perception, etc. No, I don't have anything fancy. And I can't really tell the difference between File A and File B. I've always gently suggested that most people cannot, though I've always left open that possibility for the super-gifted with ears that can distinguish between… two identical audio files! However, I've experienced gear that does make a difference, just not usually the stuff that everyone else is going on about, and not anything relevant to our discussion. It has to be pretty exceptional stuff, and something my mother could hear, before I will sink much money into anything.

That said, I've heard countless arguments about the superiority of vinyl, and yet I just listened to Yo-Yo Ma, playing Elgar's Cello Concerto with Chicago Symphony and Barenboim, which was brilliantly recorded (digitally, of course) and I've never heard such clean audio on vinyl, even when listening to the finest systems. Digital 24bit/48K+ rendered vinyl to the dustbin as far as I'm concerned, although many of my vinyl favorites never made it over to the digital domain. Gorgeous sound! Of course, sure as I said that, someone here will claim to have been on the crew who recorded that to 2" tape with dolby and Brilliant Pebbles on their $7K cables. Ya just never know what you're hearing out there. But it's been a most interesting thread. And I look forward to any new revelations from those with the stuff to prove it.

Shooshie
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Re: Ext Word Clocks - No point unless syncing other digital

Post by stephen1212b »

The strengths and weaknesses of analog, particularly vinyl, and digital are different. The flaws tend to add and the strengths to balance. I own several copies of a Ry Cooder performing the soundtrack of Paris Texas. One of the vinyl pressings is from an analog master and the other from a DAT master. With really great equipment the record from the DAT master sounds very very close to the CD while the analog pressing walks all over it, with simply much more information. This suggests several things:

First that vinyl can hold its own in terms of musical enjoyment and resolution. Digital at least 16 bit 44.1 isn't superior just different.

Second that accurate quality gear tends to sound (or not sound) similar to other accurate gear. As our understanding of each process has developed the refinements actually do seem to be converging toward a greater similarity, with speakers and rooms being the largest wild card.

Recording and playback are still considered two different beasts. This last seems odd to me given that the real revolution was that the same equipment with the same quality and capabilities can be used for both.
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Re: Ext Word Clocks - No point unless syncing other digital

Post by tomeaton »

Shooshie wrote:And I can't really tell the difference between File A and File B. I've always gently suggested that most people cannot, though I've always left open that possibility for the super-gifted with ears that can distinguish between… two identical audio files! However, I've experienced gear that does make a difference, just not usually the stuff that everyone else is going on about, and not anything relevant to our discussion. It has to be pretty exceptional stuff, and something my mother could hear, before I will sink much money into anything.
Well, if you can't hear the difference between two things, your choice is easy! If you've spent time and energy making something sound "just so," you'd probably notice a change to it. That's all I heard and I had to go figure out what caused the change. I was not TRYING to hear the dither!

If designers and commercial studios based their equipment decisions on what your mom can hear, there would be no good gear at all for you to use. Sorry... but at some point you're trusting other people to decide what sounds good. Unless you're building your own converters, mics and speakers. When people pay you money to listen every day and make artistic and technical choices based on that listening, you try to have both the forest and the trees sorted out.

I don't think my FTP site would handle the traffic of the files... Any thoughts about where I can put them up for folks to listen to? Room for two 15MB files will do!

tom
daily performer user since 1987
dp 7.24 / macpro 2.26 eight core / 6 gigs ram / 10.6.8
pci 424 / 2408mkiii / 2x1296 / 308 / mtp-av/mtp2
apogee ad16x and 2xda16x / otari concept elite
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Re: Ext Word Clocks - No point unless syncing other digital

Post by Shooshie »

Trust me, I know what you're talking about. Whether we hear the same things or not isn't even that important. The point is that we each know what is important to ourselves, and that's all we can aim for. Furthermore, it's all we can hope to accomplish, for how would we ever become devoted to an ideal that we cannot hear or imagine? We can't be someone else.

I've chased enough rainbows to find solace in the rain, but I'd never tell someone else to give up on rainbows.

Best,

Shoosh
|l| OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0 |l| 2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012 |l| 40GB RAM |l| Mach5.3 |l| Waves 9.x |l| Altiverb |l| Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l| Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes |l| Garritan Aria |l| VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l| Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller |l| Roland FC-300 |l|
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