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Is It possible for me to record a singer "audio track" dry while monitoring that same vocal track with effects on it, so the singer can hear reverb and delay while recording, " all in the box no external effects racks" ?
i am running DP 7.1, Motu 896 HD, Waves Merc, Mac Pro 8 core lots of Ram & HD
Thanks i tried all the audio patch thru options but maybe im missing something.
I used to do this with all my outboard effects but i gave it all away a few years ago and i always make vocalist record without effects but this client wants it, "it helps him sing better"
will i have any issues with this setup, any gotchas ?
you are the man seriously!!!!!!
LOL-- Xzault! Another happy camper. It's nice to see.
Dunno about any gotchas. Some of it depends on how you are monitoring. If you are using CueMix, there may be some considerations (I don't have CueMix any more, so it would be hard to address its considerations accurately.) CueMix improved after I no longer had a MOTU interface-- also some firewire MOTU interfaces have added CueMix since I last used it. That was also nice to see. Bravo, MOTU. I'm sure someone here can speak to more recent versions of CueMix in terms of monitoring through effects with the lowest possible latencies.
If you are using outboard gear for monitoring there *could* be some latency since the audio originates externally, enters DP and exits to hardware.
Otherwise, I don't foresee any caveats. I'd say you're golden!
As long as you keep DP's buffer size fairly small, latency will probably be tolerable. If the performer is uber sensitive to latency, you might try using an outboard 'verb and monitoring thru CueMix. This is the approach I use for tracking with my 828mkII, adding "talent" to vocalists with an outboard Lexicon. Of course, the newer MOTU interfaces (mkIII) have a hardware reverb built in to CueMix.
And you are absolutely correct, sir, when you say Frodo is the man.
I copied this from another thread. I use this method a lot and it works great. It works with Direct Hardware Playthrough (I don't have that option) or Monitoring Through Effects.
Thanks to Kubi.
c-ya,
Dan Worley
Kubi wrote:
... but just in case you don't know this already, here's how you can have your cake (dry vocal) and eat it too (monitor thru reverb) using only plugs and zero latency Direct Hardware playthrough:
1. Create an audio track and set it's input to whatever you're using to record the vocal (i.e. in my case, Input SPDIF1 on my 2406mk3, coming from my AD converter.)
2. Set Input Monitoring mode to Direct hardware playthrough - you will hear the vocal without latency, but bone dry
This sets up your dry recorded vocal track. Now for monitoring thru reverb:
3. Create an Aux track, set it to the same input (i.e. SPDIF1) and play enable it
4. Instantiate a reverb on that Aux (i.e. eVerb or Altiverb or whatever) and set to 100% wet (that's IMPORTANT!)
Voila, you have a reverb for monitoring at high buffer settings, while recording your signal dry and monitoring the dry signal at zero latency.
Now the reverb portion will indeed be delayed a good bit (I believe the plugs latency plus the buffer), but since pre-delay is an integral part of most reverb presets, it simply sounds like you are using pre-delay. Of course it is vital you set the reverb to 100% wet, otherwise the dry signal in the reverb acts as a weird echo...
If the resulting pre-delay in the wet signal is too much, be sure that a) your reverb preset doesn't use its own pre-delay, thus adding to the total, and b) try setting the buffer to 512 instead of 1024.
I like to track dry that way I can hear what I'm really doing. it makes you sing better IMO because your not laying back and letting the effect carry your voice... your also going to have better formant and pitch... but this is what I do. It doesn't bother me to hear my voice dry. I used to track and monitor with verb and found that when I used different processing, it really changed because I set my tonality for the room I was monitoring through.
It's just like anything... when you play with an effect on you are interactive with it and if it changes, then it takes on a whole different perspective in the end. I don't see why anyone would want to track vocals and monitor with reverb... you need to really focus on pitch and articulation and with verb washing all over your voice, it would hinder it... unless you just can't sing without it!
I'm with you Newrigel. When I first started doing studio vocals I wanted to hear my "woobie" through the headphone mix, but the engineer taught me quickly why not to. I've never tracked with it since for myself or anyone I record.
Plus I do a lot of layered harmony and BGV and it's got to start dry and stay dry to match pitch, vibrato and duration. If you're over dubbing in those situations with one can off to hear head voice and tracks it's even more important to not have any verb in there.
Now guitar, that's something else entirely and where this really makes sense to me.
[quote="newrigel" I don't see why anyone would want to track vocals and monitor with reverb.[/quote]
If you know exactly what you want the recorded performance to sound like indeed reverb can obscure detail and small flaws. But at the least there are many times a vocalist is looking for a "feel" and exploring ideas is inspired by the addition of FX. i.e. the improvised vocals over the top in the repeated chorus fade of an r+b song. Probably Jim Morrison monitored with reverb, at least that gives you an idea why someone might monitor with reverb.
Also, evaluating a performance in the way it is likely to be heard has it's merits.
Yeah, just wait till the verb doesn't sit well in the mix and you go with a different RT and then since you sang to the effect, it takes on a whole different thing... but everyones different he he. Environment processing is too influential on a source... but do as you like.
I find a little reverb (and sometimes delay) in the cans helps most people sing better, actually. They become more relaxed and don't tighten up trying to make every note perfect (which sounds unmusical to me).
If you give them too much (and sometimes they ask for too much), they can lose their bearings or become too aware of mouth noise, and then they concentrate so hard on controlling that that they forget how to sing.
My main job when tracking vocals is to make the singers as comfortable as possible. Give them what they want or come up with ideas if they don't know what they want (and yes, sometimes that means no reverb in the cans).
It's just like anything else in engineering, knowing what and how much to do when, and it changes all the time. Isn't that great! That's what I love about it.
I have been using cuemix with success for zero latency monitoring with reverb, and it works well. It took a little fussing around to get cuemix set up, but I'm now able to completely bypass an external mixer, and it works stand-alone too, which is nice just for instant gratification...
Cuemix also gives you some spectral tools too, which I have yet to fully explore. Some of these tools have been updated in the latest update patch from MOTU.
Monitoring with reverb is the same thing as "playing for the hall." It's a whole different experience than the dry sound, and one adjusts accordingly. Because so many engineers never understood how to mic for a hall performance, they placed the mics as close as possible and recorded a "dry" sound from a live concert.
Thus, performers have always had to make the choice of performing for the recording or the hall. Seems a no-brainer that you'd perform for the audience, but if you're making a live album, that makes it a little more difficult. The answer, probably is a Decca Tree. Then you perform for the hall, and the recording sounds pretty much as it would if you were sitting around front-row center. Captures some of the verb yet still a lot of dry clarity on early reflections. But you almost never see that kind of set-up in a live concert except possibly a classical concert, and even then it's rare -- kind of anachronistic. I tell people to play for the hall, we'll record it dry, and we'll add reverb later through Altiverb.
Shooshie
|l|OS X 10.12.6 |l| DP 10.0|l|2.4 GHz 12-Core MacPro Mid-2012|l|40GB RAM|l|Mach5.3|l|Waves 9.x|l|Altiverb|l|Ivory 2 New York Steinway |l|Wallander WIVI 2.30 Winds, Brass, Saxes|l|Garritan Aria|l|VSL 5.3.1 and VSL Pro 2.3.1 |l|Yamaha WX-5 MIDI Wind Controller|l|Roland FC-300|l|
Another happy camper. It's nice to see.
