Logic 9.1 is 64-bit now.... hello MOTU, are you listening?

[newrigel]

You can run 64 bit applications in the 32 bit kernel, from what I understand.

Correct — if you have an Intel-based Mac with a 64-bit processor running Mac OS X v10.6, you can run 32- and 64-bit applications while running under the 32-bit kernel.

So it's just like running in Rosetta... no significant to gains there.

[Larry Mal]

I'm not sure what you mean. Rosetta, as I understand it, allowed applications to run on Intel and PPC processors, and sometimes would have a performance hit on one or the other. Is this correct?

But running a 64 bit application on a 32 bit EFI, would still be a 64 bit application, able to access great amounts of RAM (if there is any), which is the main advantage to 64 bit computing.

It's possible that I am wrong about some of this, I'll check into it.

[carrythebanner]

I'm not sure what you mean. Rosetta, as I understand it, allowed applications to run on Intel and PPC processors, and sometimes would have a performance hit on one or the other. Is this correct?

That's the gist of it. Rosetta is a compatibility layer which allows Intel Macs to run PowerPC code, almost always with a performance hit. (Very generally speaking, the more CPU-intensive or complex the app, the greater the performance hit when running the app via Rosetta.)

But running a 64 bit application on a 32 bit EFI, would still be a 64 bit application, able to access great amounts of RAM (if there is any), which is the main advantage to 64 bit computing.

Correct. There are some differences between running a 64-bit app under the 32- and 64-bit kernels, but even for DAWs I'm not sure that the difference would be immediately apparent. Ars Technica's massive Snow Leopard review goes into some detail on this point, specifically saying:

But in daily use, you're unlikely to be able to attribute any particular performance boost to the kernel. Think of [the 64-bit kernel] as removing bottlenecks from the few (usually server-based) applications that actually do exercise these aspects of the kernel heavily.

[Shooshie]

I have a machine like Frodo's, and if I look in Activity Monitor, all the Apple apps and processes are running at 64 bit. The kernel is the only thing that isn't running at 64 bit, and to my knowledge, it doesn't slow anything down, at least not very much. Still, Apple said that these machines were fully 64-bit ready. The fact that they won't boot into a 64-bit kernel seems like a broken promise. Maybe in Apple's view that kernel just doesn't matter, and the fact that it will run all other apps in 64-bit mode means that it's "fully 64-bit ready."

In any case, I'm in no hurry. I suspect the music I produce in DP will sound the same in 64-bit mode as it does in 32-bits. If it means we can use more VI's within DP, then I guess that will be a good thing, but I really don't understand why the need to get panties in a wad over Logic's leading the way. Someone has to. There will be a lot of kinks to get worked out, the biggest being plugins. There are a lot of plugins out there to get converted. Wake me up when it's all done, ok?

Shooshie

[Quick_Silver]

I wonder why MOTU always gets late.
Hurry up and catch up with Logic!

I hope 64bit is coming soon. I hate to see it being later than second half of this year.

[KEVORKIAN]

I wonder why MOTU always gets late.
Hurry up and catch up with Logic!

I hope 64bit is coming soon. I hate to see it being later than second half of this year.

What are they late on? Apple owns both Logic and the platform it is running on... why would Motu want to beat them to something like a 64bit implementation? Let Apple go first and show the world they are ready, I say. It's not a race, these are supposed to be tools...

[n2mpujack]

I have a machine like Frodo's, and if I look in Activity Monitor, all the Apple apps and processes are running at 64 bit. The kernel is the only thing that isn't running at 64 bit, and to my knowledge, it doesn't slow anything down, at least not very much. Still, Apple said that these machines were fully 64-bit ready. The fact that they won't boot into a 64-bit kernel seems like a broken promise. Maybe in Apple's view that kernel just doesn't matter, and the fact that it will run all other apps in 64-bit mode means that it's "fully 64-bit ready."

Shooshie

Hate to argue, but it's not that the machines won't boot into the 64 bit kernel, it's that the machines won't boot by default into the 64 bit kernel, but even that can be changed by the end user.

[Shooshie]

I have a machine like Frodo's, and if I look in Activity Monitor, all the Apple apps and processes are running at 64 bit. The kernel is the only thing that isn't running at 64 bit, and to my knowledge, it doesn't slow anything down, at least not very much. Still, Apple said that these machines were fully 64-bit ready. The fact that they won't boot into a 64-bit kernel seems like a broken promise. Maybe in Apple's view that kernel just doesn't matter, and the fact that it will run all other apps in 64-bit mode means that it's "fully 64-bit ready."

Shooshie

Hate to argue, but it's not that the machines won't boot into the 64 bit kernel, it's that the machines won't boot by default into the 64 bit kernel, but even that can be changed by the end user.

I'm always for getting to the complete truth. Are you sure about that? All sources I've seen or heard say that the Intel Macs that Frodo and I both own are unable to boot into the 64 bit kernel. Everything else will; just not the kernel. I've even seen a test for it, and it comes back and says "uh-uh, no 64 bit kernel for you, chump." Well, not in those words.

Do you remember offhand how to boot into 64 bit on such a machine? Once I was convinced it wasn't possible, I simply let go of that information. How do I go about it again?

Shoosh

[Frodo]

Not all Intels will boot in 64-bit mode by default. Neither can all Intels be prompted to boot in 64-bit mode. I can on my Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro, but I cannot do it on my 2 x Duo Core MacPro.




Further:

Still not sure if your Mac has the 32 or 64-bit EFI? You can check your machine’s it by entering the following command in Terminal:

ioreg -l -p IODeviceTree | grep firmware-abi
It will return either “EFI32″ or “EFI64.”

OS News notes that only Macs with a 64-bit EFI are able to boot the 64-bit Snow Leopard kernel and kexts; an artificial limitation imposed by Apple, even though a 32-bit EFI can boot a 64-bit kernel “just fine.”

What’s worse is that even if your MacBook (non-Pro) has a 64-bit EFI, it will only be able to boot the 32-bit version of Snow Leopard because of a limitation that Apple imposes on MacBooks. The biggest roadkill on Route 64 is the original Mac Pro (which was discontinued January 8, 2008) it won’t be able to boot the 64-bit kernel and drivers either.

For more info:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=4712

[Quick_Silver]

What are they late on? Apple owns both Logic and the platform it is running on... why would Motu want to beat them to something like a 64bit implementation? Let Apple go first and show the world they are ready, I say. It's not a race, these are supposed to be tools...

It really irritating when all other plugins you use are 64bit (like PLAY) but the host is still at 32bits.

[n2mpujack]

I have a machine like Frodo's, and if I look in Activity Monitor, all the Apple apps and processes are running at 64 bit. The kernel is the only thing that isn't running at 64 bit, and to my knowledge, it doesn't slow anything down, at least not very much. Still, Apple said that these machines were fully 64-bit ready. The fact that they won't boot into a 64-bit kernel seems like a broken promise. Maybe in Apple's view that kernel just doesn't matter, and the fact that it will run all other apps in 64-bit mode means that it's "fully 64-bit ready."

Shooshie

Hate to argue, but it's not that the machines won't boot into the 64 bit kernel, it's that the machines won't boot by default into the 64 bit kernel, but even that can be changed by the end user.

I'm always for getting to the complete truth. Are you sure about that? All sources I've seen or heard say that the Intel Macs that Frodo and I both own are unable to boot into the 64 bit kernel. Everything else will; just not the kernel. I've even seen a test for it, and it comes back and says "uh-uh, no 64 bit kernel for you, chump." Well, not in those words.

Do you remember offhand how to boot into 64 bit on such a machine? Once I was convinced it wasn't possible, I simply let go of that information. How do I go about it again?

Shoosh

To boot into 64 bit kernel hold down the 6 and 4 keys as the machine boots. To check if your Mac is able to do this see these links:
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php? ... 2100235176
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/ ... w_leopard/
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=4712

There is a way to 'permanently' make the Mac (if it's capable of doing so) boot into 64 bit mode; See this link:
http://netkas.org/?p=127

[SixStringGeek]

Apple created what they refer to as a 32-bit Audio Unit Bridge that carves out 4GB of ram outside of Logic 9 for it's use with 32-bit plugins

I'll bet this is just a hidden local instance of LogicNode running in 32bit mode. They've had the technology to distribute the audio processing around a local network for awhile.

We'll be living with this kind of 32-bit wrapper technology for quite awhile I think. For instance, Native Instruments has EOL'd a chunk of Komplete 5 thus marooning a number of us B4 II addicts at a most inopportune time (and I'm not buying another bit from that company apart from keeping Kontakt up to date to protect my investment in Kontakt compatible sample libs).

[soloact]

Excellent info guys, thanks!
This was pecking at my brain this morning, and I didn't see any 64 bit talk on the MOTU site.

This is going to take a bit more patience overall. For a few years I've predicted the day Logic goes full 64-bit would be an important road sign. So, we've passed that landmark as of today. What does that mean?

3-4 years ago, those of us with late-model G5s were hoping for new life to come to those machines sporting 8GB+ RAM. No such luck. Steve Jobs announced that there would be no support for 64-bit frameworks on the PPC--- and suddenly the MacPros appeared. So, I read the sea shells, bones, and runes as best I could and bought a SECOND GENERATION MacPro with the belief that I'd shopped wisely. That was 2007.

Lo and behold, my machine was a 2x Duo Core. Little did anyone know at the time that any old Intel would not work to the extent to which it was promised. Enter the Core 2 Duo.

My point, I guess, is that it doesn't matter what Logic or DP are doing right now. For many of us, we got doubly omitted from the 64-bit equation.

Okay-- in celebration of Logic's entry into 64-bit world this month, we also see some SERIOUS compromises:

No AAF import or export
No OMF import or export
No MP3 conversion
No Eucon support
No Automap of control surfaces
No REX support
No ReWire support
No VSL tools
No Logic Nodes

... among others.

There may be very good reasons why such important features cannot be supported at this time. Whatever those reasons are, MOTU will have to confront those reasons with the reality that Apple couldn't figure these things out first to pass those feature support specs onto third-party developers like MOTU.

Once again, those of you who bought a MacPro (or any Mac with a Core 2 Duo chipset) within the past 24 months are among the lucky ones. G5 users are either licking their wounds or falling asleep on the latest news--- but Duo Core MacPro owners are crying foul out loud-- or are pretending to be altogether disinterested. Those still thriving on G5s might have already been contemplating their next computer purchase. Those who made that purchase before the age of the Core 2 Duo are now faced with having to buy a new machine within months of their last MacPro purchase just to make good on any possibility of running ANYTHING in 64-bit mode.

On that note, if MOTU takes their time with getting DP to full 64-bit, I'm personally okay with that. It's going to pretty much be a complete do-over for me-- a new machine, new (ie: expensive) RAM, etc. Sheesh--- I don't know whether to laugh or cry about all of this.

Given the incompatibilities with Logic 9.1 in 64-bit, I'm quite happy to wait until MOTU sorts out the same hurdles for "DP8".

Let me first say that without question, I am a flag waving soldier for MOTU and more specifically DP. I've been a professional user of DP user since version DP3 and I've been very happy from the first day through this one.

However, a fairly large percentage of my customers are Logic users that prefer to use Logic at my studio for consistency with their projects. Often times the project is far along in their production phase and they're coming to me to track drums, organ etc. They've also got tons of edits which makes it a nightmare to just pull in the audio tracks without spending an eternity lining up those tracks and OMF is a mystery for most of these people! So in order to accommodate them, I did purchase Logic 9 a few months ago.

Since that time I have spent a lot of time sort of getting to know the product so I don't look like a complete idiot in front of the customer. I have to say that there are some things that I do like about Logic, but not nearly enough for me to want to become a switcher. Also, Logic 9 9.02 32-bit is just god awful at memory management which is very high on my list of necessities. So that brings me to today. I updated my instance of Logic 9 to 9.1 last night because there are many reported fixes/enhancements for the 32-bit version even if I chose to not use the 64-bit version. I can report that I am impressed with what Apple has done. I'm still NOT GOING TO SWITCH but they have made some significant improvements.

Switching between 32-bit and 64-bit is really easy Frodo and I have to say that many of the incompatibilities that you've listed are remedied by performing those functions in 32-bit mode. For the record however, your list of non-working functions is accurate if used solely in 64-bit mode. Apple made it really easy to choose which mode you want to launch with a simple checkbox on the applications information page.

For all of the many 32-bit plugins that I own, Apple created what they refer to as a 32-bit Audio Unit Bridge that carves out 4GB of ram outside of Logic 9 for it's use with 32-bit plugins. I was a bit skeptical of this at first, but it actually works ok. I instantiated many of my favorite Universal Audio plugins without an issue. I'm hearing reports that the Audio Unit Bridge leads to nowhere with some plugins however but that's not my experience.

All in all, for what it's worth, I think Apple did a good job for their flagship DAW that I still don't prefer. I think Frodo nailed it as it pertains to this milestone. I expect the other Mac based DAW's to follow suit really soon.

As for me and my house, we're using DP 7.02 all the way!!!

[Shooshie]

IMO, 64-bit is a nugget of Unobtanium right now, and I don't even want to think about it. Whether or not Logic claims to be "fully 64-bit" at this point, there are too many facets of what we do that cannot be done at 64-bit yet, with or without Logic. So, rather than watch each painful step of this long process of going 64-bit, and feeling big-bit envy, little-bit shame, and all the other bludgeons that are preparing each and every one of us to send Apple and other companies a 64-bit Truckload of money one of these days, I'm basically relegating 64-bit to "ignore mode."

That's right. I could not care farking less whether Logic or Pro Tools or Cubase or Reason or Acid or Record or Studio 1 or Garageband or Wiretap Studio or my neighbor's cat or my sister-in-law's boobs go 64-bit. It just doesn't matter to me, because this is just going to be the topic of countless threads in panic mode for the next 1 to 3 years, as all the necessary pieces gradually come together to make 64-bit computing as complete and enjoyable as is our current 32-bit. And then you know what they'll do? I'll give you one guess, and the answer starts with 128-bit. Then the process will start all over, panic and all, and we'll all feel inadequate that we don't have what it takes anymore to produce a great song.

Damn, my work hasn't changed all that much since I was doing it on a 512K Mac. (the 128K wasn't powerful enough, so we had to upgrade to 512K just to USE the software we'd ordered way back in the middle of 1984. Sound familiar? Boy, if I'd only known that the pattern would simply never cease!

Moore's Law has turned into the greatest marketing tool ever! Well, Moore's Law can go to heck, because I'm going to make music on a regular old Intel Mac Pro Dual-Duo (quad) for as long as it'll keep chomping bits. And enjoying the freaking heck out of it.

Somebody let me know when LAME framework, mp3 codecs, all audio formats, all peripherals, all plugins, and everything else ALL run fine in 64-bit without exceptions and Rosettas and other work-arounds. Let me know when the prices don't set us back the cost of a new Lexus Hybrid SUV. Until then, please keep your 64-bit hysteria at least on the quiet side. Not wanting to censor anyone, so don't take me wrong; I'm just one hamster that's getting off the treadmill wheel. Ya'll have fun panicking. I'll be enjoying the heck out of Digital Performer -- as is.

Shooshie

[KEVORKIAN]

That's right. I could not care farking less whether Logic or Pro Tools or Cubase or Reason or Acid or Record or Studio 1 or Garageband or Wiretap Studio or my neighbor's cat or my sister-in-law's boobs go 64-bit. It just doesn't matter to me, because this is just going to be the topic of countless threads in panic mode for the next 1 to 3 years, as all the necessary pieces gradually come together to make 64-bit computing as complete and enjoyable as is our current 32-bit.

+1000

I'm way more interested in making music with what I've got than wondering what's next.