Microtuning in DP ?

[draudio2u]

I am curious if anyone has experimented with microtuning with DP's internal instruments? Is this possible or does DP only recognize 12 notes per octave?

Long live John Cage.

Andreas

[James Steele]

I am curious if anyone has experimented with microtuning with DP's internal instruments? Is this possible or does DP only recognize 12 notes per octave?

Long live John Cage.

Andreas

I have no idea, not being into experimental music. Does Logic recognize more than 12 notes per octave or other DAWs? Have we found yet another glaring omission in DP's feature set?

[BKK-OZ]

I am curious if anyone has experimented with microtuning with DP's internal instruments?

I dunno about MOTU's VI's, but both Absynth (NI) and Cronox (Linplug) offer a lot of alternative tuning options. Cronox in particular offers a ton of tuning options.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Micro-tuning is not a function of the DAW, it is a function of the sound generating device. So if the MOTU VIs allow it, then yes, it is part of DP's VIs. The MIDI standard does not allow for 1/4 or 1/8 tones as a MIDI note number - so no DAW or MIDI device can claim to me microtonal as a function of MIDI data. How a device (either a VI or a hardware module) deals with tunings is completely independent. Subsequently, the Western tempered scale user (that's anybody with a standard piano keyboard or fretboard) must adapt their playing to accommodate the relative distance between notes not being 100 cents apart (half-tones).

The op specifically asked about DP's instruments, not DP as a DAW and as such it is a very valid question, not an attack on the app. I don't use DP's VIs nor do I do microtonal music presently, but I am curious so when I start work later today, I will investigate that. I know the Korg Wavestation keyboard and module did alternate scaling, as do many modules and VI's. I believe the Korg VIs still have that as an option, but I'll double check that as well.

This kind of links to the tinnitus thread in the o/t area since, if one were to try and match their errant/phantom tones, surely they would not be right "on pitch" and an alternate tuning could be useful.

It is also an interesting question in terms of pitch correction in DP an other apps. Can you correct pitch in a 19 note scale? Or are you relegated to a tempered scale? Even further, are you forced to correct to a standard tempered scale or would the pitch correction be adjustable to accommodate a Valotti temperament?

For more from that bastion (bastard?) of information, Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_sc ... ern_scales

[Tritonemusic]

I have no idea, not being into experimental music.

Just for the record, microtonal music is certainly not limited to "experimental" music. Microtones have been used around the world for, at least, thousands of years in very traditional music.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I have no idea, not being into experimental music.

Just for the record, microtonal music is certainly not limited to "experimental" music. Microtones have been used around the world for, at least, thousands of years in very traditional music.

In fact, if some performers were allowed to do what comes naturally and everyone stopped using bitc.. I mean, PITCH correction, there would be a lot more microtonal music in popular culture. Or maybe not, since there would be a lot less "artists" around...

LOL!

[James Steele]

I have no idea, not being into experimental music.

Just for the record, microtonal music is certainly not limited to "experimental" music. Microtones have been used around the world for, at least, thousands of years in very traditional music.

Right... I stand corrected. Just that the only times I was introduced to it in school... it was rather "experimental" to me. I was thinking of traditional western music that most of us are used to hearing. Could you give me an example of thousand year old microtonal music? Was this microtonal "by chance" as in passing a pitch on the way to another or an accidental sort of unwritten microtonality, as opposed to someone like Wendy Carlos whom I believe created various microtonal scales I read somewhere?

I guess I was not aware of any vast body of "traditional" microtonal music.

[newrigel]

I have no idea, not being into experimental music.

Just for the record, microtonal music is certainly not limited to "experimental" music. Microtones have been used around the world for, at least, thousands of years in very traditional music.

Right... I stand corrected. Just that the only times I was introduced to it in school... it was rather "experimental" to me. I was thinking of traditional western music that most of us are used to hearing. Could you give me an example of thousand year old microtonal music? Was this microtonal "by chance" as in passing a pitch on the way to another or an accidental sort of unwritten microtonality, as opposed to someone like Wendy Carlos whom I believe created various microtonal scales I read somewhere?

I guess I was not aware of any vast body of "traditional" microtonal music.

I think it originated because they didn't have a tuner he he...

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Could you give me an example of thousand year old microtonal music? ... I guess I was not aware of any vast body of "traditional" microtonal music.

Well, there's the somewhat extensive cultures of Japan, China and India that spring immediately into mind. The shakuhachi, koto, and sitar are examples of instruments that use microtonal scales.

Too bad you didn't get a better description other than microtonality as being experimental. All it means is that instead of 12 frets per octave (in terms a guitarist might visualize better) it simply means you have more frets.

To "Western" ears, this often sounds "out of tune" when in fact, the tempered scale is what is "out of tune. If allowed to resonate perfectly, a piano would sound terrible to our ears. In early days, instruments had to be tuned to play in specific keys, but around the time of Bach, the scales were "tempered" by making the 5ths slightly flatter and the 4ths slightly sharper to the are in what is called "equal temperament." The Well Tempered Clavichord (Bach) was able to be written in all the keys because of this and was a major 'breakthrough' in the science of music physics. So you probably have heard a lot more microtonal music than you think. You actually hear it fairly often in the movies, but it just sounds "oriental" to the uninitiated ear.

This, again, from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Well-T ... on_history

Bach's title suggests that he had written for a (12-note) well-tempered tuning system in which all keys sounded in tune (also known as "circular temperament"). The opposing system in Bach's day was meantone temperament in which keys with many accidentals sound out of tune. (See also musical tuning). It is sometimes assumed that Bach intended equal temperament, the standard modern keyboard tuning which became popular after Bach's death, but modern scholars suggest instead a form of well temperament. There is debate whether Bach meant a range of similar temperaments, perhaps even altered slightly in practice from piece to piece, or a single specific "well-tempered" solution for all purposes.

[BKK-OZ]

Could you give me an example of thousand year old microtonal music?

There are tons of examples. In fact, the 12-tone tempered scale is the odd one out in terms of history and usage. Ancient Persian music, Indian, Indonesian, etc. etc. If you are really interested, I've got a few books on non-western scales/traditions. Microtonal is a problematic word though - most people take it to mean anything that isn't 12-tone tempered, which covers a lot of ground. Harry Partch (one of my heroes) had several takes on microtunal scales, his most favoured being one with 43 steps. His logic behind it always does my head in, but its still cool nonetheless.

A coupla examples from the dreaded Wiki:
śruti - thousandS of years old
Gamelan music (from Indonesia)

Interestingly, according to one text I have, the Chinese developed a form of a tempered scale several hundred years before it was developed in the West, but because their so-called 'classical' canon is so old, a lot of their most important/revered music isn't in tempered tuning.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Was this microtonal "by chance" as in passing a pitch on the way to another or an accidental sort of unwritten microtonality, as opposed to someone like Wendy Carlos whom I believe created various microtonal scales I read somewhere?

It is a function of physics and the design of the instruments. There are, in fact, an infinite number of tunings, possible harmonies and melodies, etc. with microtuning, but an ear reared on a tempered scale is often hard pressed to discern the subtleties. Even when we say there are 100 cents from one half note to the next, that is only a convention. As a guitarist slides or pulls a string, they are, in fact, using microtones. To hear this more clearly, just don't slide all the way up to the next half step. Of course, microtones sound out of tune to our ears, but it is a much more complex (and to some minds) more beautiful, expansive and expressive design more closely aligned to nature and the human voice. Another example? Birds and other animals don;t know from a tempered scale. That's why bird songs often sounds ineffective if a musician tries to imitate them. The real thing is much more expressive and ... microtonal.

[newrigel]

In fact, the 12-tone tempered scale is the odd one out in terms of history and usage. Hmmm... seems mathematically correct in interval so how could that be odd?

Hmmm... seems mathematically correct in interval so how could that be odd?
Seems like if it's mathematically in tonic and ratio then the others are the odd ones... oh well.
But the micro tuning is on the instrument level... maybe some reading in the manual to find out if they are? I don't use that micro stuff... a chorus is about as far as I'd want to go using beat frequencies.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Harry Partch (one of my heroes)...

Ah! We find common ground again! Every one of my UC students was subjected to Mr. Partch's music. Here's a great example for you James - micro guitar! (although Harry probably made the instrument himself!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veB0UkFuRls

[BKK-OZ]

The Well Tempered Clavichord (Bach) was able to be written in all the keys because of this and was a major 'breakthrough' in the science of music physics.

C Wolff's Biography of Bach goes into this subject in some detail. From memory, I think he concluded that Bach, in a sort of patriarchal, instructive mode, was trying to tell all his musical colleagues about the 'right way' to make music that could be easily transposed btwn keys.

On my Amazon wish-list for purchase some day: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony

Hmmm... seems mathematically correct in interval so how could that be odd?
Seems like if it's mathematically in tonic and ratio then the others are the odd ones... oh well.

Right - poorly worded on my part. I meant "...odd one out..." in the sense that there is actually a longer history (and probably?) more music written using other scales, hence it being, in some senses at least, a less important scale. What I mean is that in the thousands of years we have been doing music, the current 12-tone stuff is essentially a (relatively) recent phenomena. You're right (of course ) about the mathematics side of things.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I think you meant to quote newrigel, not me, but no problem. As for the math, I apprenticed as a piano tuner technician and tuned for many years in Manhattan and Santa Barbara. Still tune my own piano. But if you don't understand the math of equal temperament, your piano tuning will be for $hit. Of course, you weren't talking to me...