Opinions please. Time to switch back, or move on.

[sevenone]

Thanks for the comments and advice. Just to clear a couple thing up, and hopefully get a couple answers too, I didn't mean to imply I have some bad taste about DP. I actually prefer it in many ways. The last version I ran (and still do sometimes) is 5.1.3, on a dual 2.0 G5, and later on my iMac 2.8 Extreme. It's mostly stable and I don't really have problems with it. When I was ready to upgrade, many of the reviews were not kind. That is one of the reasons I moved to logic. That, the node processing and Logic for me cost the same as DP upgrade.

Logic to me seems geared more to the writing musician that also records stuff, where DP has always seemed more heavy duty (way more in depth). For me, at the time, I was writing alot, and not recording full bands, etc. With logic I could boot the machine, load it up with some VI's or loops, and dink around and write quick within 5 minutes. I didn't have to spend lots 'o dough, to get pretty descent (for demo writing) VI's. I haven't had to load Reason since I got Logic. Now I'm getting back into recording, producing for others, as well as writing. The new features, and GUI feel much more friendly. I like it. It seems like what I wanted DP5 to be.

My main concerns with DP are, since it's the new version, and I thought it was reworked for SL, will it be hoggish on a G5 or my 2yr iMac? I'm not running SL yet. Not "Its a pig". From what I read Logic 9 is really a pig.

Distributed processing. That's that big one. I should be able to AUNetSend and recieve? The whole thing is I'll run DP on both machines, or DP and logic, whatever. Send out on a channel with AUNetsent loaded as a plug. Recieve on the other machine with AUNetRecieve, and push it back as processed sound? I really don't care too much yet about MIDI transfers, more just taking some of the Processor hit from comp/eq/rev plugs on audio from the the main machine and offloading that. I looked a bit at Bidule, seems kinda complicated, does that work then as a ReWire? What are some other good options?

As far as my comment about degrading sound quality, earlier in my post I talked about a problem where in DP, if I had been running a long time (3+hrs), a quiet white noise would appear during playback and recording, and within a minute or so would escalate to a loud digital sounding dirty type of signal thing. It's hard to describe. The only remedy was a restart. I'm still unclear if that was DP or not, but it hasn't happened in Logic or itunes, etc.

My controller being HUI is doable, it worked that way for a couple years, it's been nice in Logic though have full control of the board/plugs/arming. But I can live without.

And the MIDI sucked comment, may have been too harsh, I was in a hurry. But it is more complicated in DP then Logic. having to go setup a MIDI device, then set it up in dp, then a restart or two. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but every program should just be plug and play with MIDI by now. If I want to change something, that's great let me, but I hate having to use apple audio/MIDI app.

Overall, I don't have a bad taste about DP, never did, or Motu for that matter. THat why I want to come back after skipping a version. You have to try the others to see what works best right?

[Shooshie]

And the MIDI sucked comment, may have been too harsh, I was in a hurry. But it is more complicated in DP then Logic. having to go setup a MIDI device, then set it up in dp, then a restart or two. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but every program should just be plug and play with MIDI by now. If I want to change something, that's great let me, but I hate having to use apple audio/MIDI app.

MIDI was designed in about 1980 or so. Computers were barely a shadow of their power today. MIDI was not really set up as an intelligent interface for "plug & play." While you can sometimes get accurate results by having Apple's Audio/MIDI Setup query the MIDI network, I've never once gotten a full reporting of my MIDI devices that way. I've always had to go in and manually set up most of my MIDI devices.

But to be clear about this, that has nothing to do with Digital Performer. Audio/MIDI Setup is essential for anyone who wants to use audio or MIDI on a Macintosh. If you don't set it up there first, your applications will not know what's connected to your Mac.

There's a certain amount of complexity to the setup in DP, and yet it's surprisingly simple to set up, and it's quite fast once you know what's up. Even Garageband requires you to make some audio and MIDI choices. But MOTU offers a lot more options than Garageband. So, it must necessarily be more complicated. But then, so is Logic, Pro Tools, Cubase, or any other professional-level DAW. Like music itself, there's a sort of minimum requirement of brainwork to make anything happen.

Shooshie

[neiljohnstonii]

It still boggles my mind that no company has the capacity to put together a DAW that works for everyone. There typically are like 2 or 3 things maybe in each one that people just don't like. PT LE has no ADC and the MIDI editing has always been behind the curve. Logic has the environment and yada, yada, yada.

My main DAW for years has been Logic and I always come back to it. I have had DP since version 4 and have upgraded through version 6. I want it to be my main DAW because there is so much to like about it. And I absolutely love the modded interfaces going around here right now (Logic GUI is hideous IMHO, my biggest complaint). But again, as with all DAW's, there are a couple things that annoy me and they are too big to get me away from Logic for good.

For one, who the hell can mess with those tiny little x's for velocity in MIDI. I don't know how others work but those are just unacceptable to me. Can never work quickly in that area and that is big for me. Also, how hard would it be to add object based editing? Just doesn't seem that difficult, but of course I'm not a programmer. I know Shooshie has mentioned in the past that object oriented editing is not for musicians. I full heartedly disagree with this. Maybe he does much more in classical, which is not my area, but doesn't most music have a verse, chorus, bridge, etc.? It is so essential to grab these areas and copy and paste in one motion where I don't need to see the individual notes. There is always a bit of editing to change those portions up a bit, especially the drums, but it is much easier to get that part put together and go from there.

I recently picked up a Presonus Studio Live and I absolutely love that piece of gear. With that purchase I was able to pick up Studio One at a discount and to be honest, I am moving towards that a bit. It is definitely lacking in features, but if they keep it up this will be a serious contender for some of us. It's handling of resources easily rivals Logic, if not better, it has great ease of use, and a nice GUI (in my opinion). The mastering project idea looks freaking great, but I have not delved into that yet. If they add on board pitch correction and a drum editor that would be it for me. Oh well, only to dream of a DAW that has every little thing I am looking for.

[Michael Canavan]

Also, how hard would it be to add object based editing? Just doesn't seem that difficult, but of course I'm not a programmer. I know Shooshie has mentioned in the past that object oriented editing is not for musicians. I full heartedly disagree with this. Maybe he does much more in classical, which is not my area, but doesn't most music have a verse, chorus, bridge, etc.? It is so essential to grab these areas and copy and paste in one motion where I don't need to see the individual notes.

My take on this is twofold. First off in DP I always have used separate Chunks for verse, chorus etc. until the bloody end, and even then you still have the Chunks to throw into the Song window.
Second I agree, for the Track Overview window you should be able to have object oriented MIDI, you should be able to cut copy and merge it etc. As it stands the data is broken down into chunks, but based on measures etc. You put one 1/2 bar break into a song and it's all haywire, you're back to using markers and the like..
I think it would be cool to allow object oriented MIDI in the Track Overview, but that's no reason to show MIDI that way in the Sequence and Graphic editors. Never saw the point of that in Logic etc. ?

Though all this is moot if you start a project with Chunks that contain verse, chorus etc. it's the easiest and in many ways faster than option dragging MIDI objects in Logic and the like.

Also I'm one of those people that thought Logic 5 was the best looking DAW, and that Apple is making it bland. Taste is subjective, but Amplidood's mods are really pretty cool!

[amplidood]

I remember trying to give ideas to MOTU about how to make the whole Song concept work with audio tracks. The big problem has always been this; every audio track in every chunk is considered active the moment it is put into the song. So if you have 8 separate chunks with 16 audio tracks each...well you get it.

The only way to make chunks and the Song window become viable again is to do it the way Studio Vision did. You have a set number of audio voices available and the tracks within the chunks are routed to those. There would be a "Song Mixer" that represented those voices.

They got closer with the V-Racks concept, but it still doesn't eliminate the problem of every audio track in every chunk being considered always active.

[Shooshie]

The alternative to working with regions is to learn the art of selection such that it's second nature. I've got many shortcuts for it that make it even easier. To me that feels much freer than trying to get a region object to quit behaving like one when you don't want it to be an object anymore. I can keep selections behaving as virtual objects as long as I want to; not hard to do. There are a lot of little tricks in the Tracks Overview Window that make it easy to select exactly what you want, down to the last note. (Yes, you can actually see individual notes or chords in the TO) Since I was working with DP since before it HAD a graphic editing window, I guess I just learned to work this way. Apparently others find it hard to do.

But the thing about the velocity tics (those little icons)... what's hard about them? They are so easy to work with. Logic has the most bizarre and byzantine MIDI editing I ever saw. It may work for people who mainly like to move blocks of song parts around, but I work with individual notes. In DP, my way works amazingly well. (for me, of course) The ability to simply select any line of music, then to draw my phrasing precisely in a single pass, is invaluable. There is NO similar way to do it in Logic. People who say there is do not know what I'm talking about, and thus they don't realize that they aren't seeing the entire picture. I thought it was the other way around for many years, but then I collaborated with several people who showed me their way in great detail, and... omigosh... I was seeing it correctly all along. They really DON'T see it the DP way. Logic really does NOT enable you to work this way. I don't know which was the more mind boggling revelation: that Logic actually was designed not to allow this detail-oriented editing in a quick and easy way, or that Logic users had grown into their way of thinking so that they were unable to see the possibilities or advantages of this other, natural way.

Knowing that I'm going to be asked "just what is your so-called "natural" way?" and not really wanting to try to explain it in such detail so that you can see the differences (lots and lots of words and screenshots would be required), I guess I'm going to have to make a movie some day. Meanwhile, I say:

Tomato; tomahto. If you like your tools, stick with 'em. Don't try to change mine so they work like yours! Mine work so much better for me that I'd be completely lost if they stopped doing that. If I had to work in a Logic-like interface, I would no longer do this kind of work. That's how different it is.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I want to add one thing: I think the way we work actually grows inside our brains through neural pathways that become engrained and enriched over time. I'm completely comfortable looking at a jumble of MIDI dots on a graphic editor. I can quickly pick out their velocities in the space below (in DP), either by their arrangement or by clicking the note above to highlight the velocity below. I have tricks to simplify it even further, such as Scratch Tracks, into which I drag whatever I'm working on for the moment, allowing me to work in great detail on them without worrying about losing my selection. Then when I'm done, I drag them back into their original track. For me, that's faster than using mute tools or whatever. But I digress.

I think that if you didn't come up in this MIDI world the same way I did, then you'd probably find my way more difficult simply because your mind (your brain, your neurons) did not shape itself to fit this way of working. Likewise, I probably don't find your way much fun for similar reasons, although it's true that Logic does make it much more difficult to do it my way.

And also, the OP is correct; I work in classical music more often than not these days, though I have made most of my money in the pop field in the past. So, actually my techniques were all acquired while working on pop songs. The Song window is a tool, not an end. You use the Song Window to manipulate some chunks of MIDI, then you pop it back out of there and work in the sequence again. (some complain about there not being enough editing features in the Song Window. You're not supposed to STAY there!)

Ok. Enough. I've said this stuff so many times I know it by memory. No need to go through it all again.

Shoosh

[neiljohnstonii]

Tomato; tomahto. If you like your tools, stick with 'em. Don't try to change mine so they work like yours! Mine work so much better for me that I'd be completely lost if they stopped doing that. If I had to work in a Logic-like interface, I would no longer do this kind of work. That's how different it is.
Shooshie

With respect, I think this is where you are missing the point and get too defensive. I don't want to take away your tools and the way you work. I would like everything to stay the same and to add certain functionality similar to other DAW's. AFAIK, DP is the only big boy not to have object oriented MIDI editing. Why would adding this in the track view take away any of your tools? Just don't use that functionality if you don't like working that way. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be an available option though.

If I were totally happy with Logic I wouldn't bother exploring other options or keep up with the upgrades to DP. Like I was saying, seems like everyone has a couple gripes about their favorite DAW and there is always room for improvement. Unfortunately, companies seem to be focusing on including guitar sims, virtual instruments and the fluff lately rather than on optimizing more important features.

[Michael Canavan]

But the thing about the velocity tics (those little icons)... what's hard about them? They are so easy to work with. Logic has the most bizarre and byzantine MIDI editing I ever saw. It may work for people who mainly like to move blocks of song parts around, but I work with individual notes. In DP, my way works amazingly well. (for me, of course) The ability to simply select any line of music, then to draw my phrasing precisely in a single pass, is invaluable. There is NO similar way to do it in Logic. People who say there is do not know what I'm talking about, and thus they don't realize that they aren't seeing the entire picture. I thought it was the other way around for many years, but then I collaborated with several people who showed me their way in great detail, and... omigosh... I was seeing it correctly all along. They really DON'T see it the DP way. Logic really does NOT enable you to work this way. I don't know which was the more mind boggling revelation: that Logic actually was designed not to allow this detail-oriented editing in a quick and easy way, or that Logic users had grown into their way of thinking so that they were unable to see the possibilities or advantages of this other, natural way.

There are a lot of Logic users that aren't aware that in the Matrix editor you can select all objects on a track and work. Basically there are a lot of advanced Logic users who aren't fully familiar with the program, not a surprise.
In comparing DAWs, personally I think the neuron analogy is pretty cool, but I think it's a hinderance to the individual to think that their way is the way because they hardwired it. To me anyway workflow is #1, so for instance in Live copying MIDI data in a phrase gets tagged onto the end at the quantize value in that phrase. At first I thought of how in certain instances that wouldn't be what you want an Live was dumbing it down etc. but once you dump that thinking and realize that 90% of the time that's exactly what you want to happen in a phrase, for the data to copy directly in front etc. you realize your thinking was off.

DP already cuts MIDI data into objects in the Track Overview, it just does it by a quantize value you set in Preferences and by what 'it' sees as a phrase. I fail to see how that shouldn't change to fit a more modern and less arbitrary way of showing data? Not at all trying to be rude here, but again, DP already allows you to select data by object, but it's not very user adjustable and isn't the best way to deal with the data as you well know, so how would adding the ability to mold the phrases in MIDI data in the Track Overview be a bad thing? with the way you work, nothing would change at all.
To me anyway, that would put DP ahead of the pack, as it stands people think of DP as the odd duck, hard to grasp, and counter intuitive. I don't agree with that, but I do acknowledge that DPs refusal to even allow the user to shape it's own MIDI data splitting by phrase is a hinderance to DP and an issue for people who start in DAWs that do allow that.

[Shooshie]

My apologies for seeming contrary. I've been through this conversation so often that I get careless and leave out details, I guess. (thought I had it down, but I guess not) No, I don't care if they add MIDI objects to DP. That's a great thing if it facilitates ease of use for more people. I already have to duck it with the objects that currently exist, except when they happen to be what I want. Command-key does the trick. Other keys add more functionality.

Sure, if they added it, I'm certain it would be another choice in the list of existing parameters for the Tracks Overview, plus they would take it to the other windows as well, I'm sure. And yes, I could just turn it off. When I say "don't mess with my tools," I really just mean that I'm happy with the way they are, and you can add to them as long as you don't take away what's already there. Naturally, I'm just talking into the wind, since MOTU will do what MOTU wants to do, and not what I dictate from my little soap box here.

And regarding the MIDI editing in Logic, no, you can't do all that you can do in DP. It really is more complicated and clunky compared to DP. I've dived into that so many times in Logic, plus I've been through all the pages in the manual regarding this sort of thing, plus I've gone round with some pretty sophisticated Logic users. The answer is no. It doesn't do it all. (Guess I'm going to have to make that movie) I'm STILL OPEN to be shown that I'm wrong, despite my severe certainty at this point that I'm not, but remember: this is a concern that I have examined periodically and closely in Logic for about 6 years now. It has been the primary criterion for whether I could completely switch to Logic should it ever become necessary. The answer as it stands is no. If DP ceased development or had some radical (bad) change, I wouldn't give up working. I'd just give up upgrading. I could not switch to Logic, because it doesn't work efficiently enough in the MIDI Editing features. Honestly, in software like this, quite often "more" turns out to be less. Logic's MIDI editing is such an example.

DP's "less" happens to be a perfect gem. Absolutely what you need; nothing more and nothing less. It's superb. (Shut up, Shooshie; just make a movie) The trouble is that I don't have time to make a movie, and I dread doing that. I'll have to go through all that Logic research again and show the comparison, yadda, yadda...

Ok, regarding the "hard-wiring," that's not quite the word for it I'd have used. I'm not implying rigidity. I'm saying that I'm comfortable in the midst of what may look like chaos to someone else, because I "grew up in it." It doesn't mean I'm unable to do other things. It means that others look in and think they CAN'T do it, while if they give the learning curve some time, it'll start making sense. Example: I'm fine with selecting notes in a sea of chaos. Others prefer MIDI objects -- regions.

And finally, "defensive????" Moi?????

I've been having this DP/Logic conversation for nearly 10 years, and before that it was DP vs. Studio Vision, DP vs. Pro Tools, and even Performer vs. Cubase. It would please me if it were possible to teach DP thoroughly, simply, and quickly, but it's just not that easy to do. I'm still learning it myself! People will always reach back to compare everything to their home-base, whether that be Logic or some other DAW. When you're first learning, it's all abstract. But later we do have these constructs (there's that hard wiring again) that facilitate our ability to turn abstractions into concrete action. When figuring out a new DAW. that usually takes place in the form of imagining the way we do it on our "home DAW," then translating it to the new place. When the features don't match, we're left with a mix of translations alongside new abstractions, and it just takes a while to merge them into one new and solid understanding of the tools.

But it does bother me when people treat their deficiency as DP's deficiency. Let's get it straight. The stuff we're discussing is NOT DP's deficiency. It's the original poster's. Same as it would be if I were trying to bend Logic to my will. That's my problem, not Logic's. I own Logic, but I'm a 100% DP kind of guy. Not out of some brand loyalty (which I DO have, btw, in the form of appreciation to MOTU), but out of the sheer joy of working in this platform. It's spectacular!

Shooshie

[newrigel]

I'd say to the OT to just sell both boxes and get a used Mac Pro for cheap. An iMac can't touch the power of a MP (except the new i7's of course but they are well over 2K) and you seem to be running out of juice... I'd just get a new box if I was you and be done with it.

[Shooshie]

I'd say to the OT to just sell both boxes and get a used Mac Pro for cheap. An iMac can't touch the power of a MP (except the new i7's of course but they are well over 2K) and you seem to be running out of juice... I'd just get a new box if I was you and be done with it.

While I normally don't like to disparage anyone's machine, and iMacs are darned fine machines, I couldn't agree more that to get the most out of ANY DAW, the Mac Pro experience is hard to beat.

Shoosh

[Michael Canavan]

DP's "less" happens to be a perfect gem. Absolutely what you need; nothing more and nothing less. It's superb. (Shut up, Shooshie; just make a movie) The trouble is that I don't have time to make a movie, and I dread doing that. I'll have to go through all that Logic research again and show the comparison, yadda, yadda...

You should make the movie. My feelings coming from DP 2.7.2 to Logic 4.7-8 to Live 4-7 to DP5 is that Logic and DP are neck and neck in MIDI. (I like the way DP quantizes MIDI better though.) I would love to visually see the difference, and honestly it would be a great learning tool for all.

Though honestly Logic's cycling functions and looping are easier, and DP of course is much further along in audio IMO.

I have no brand loyalty, if Logic had the ability to play entire sets of VI's and backing tracks without Mainstage and Live's live performance oriented editing ability (adding FX and such doesn't glitch Live), I would be on Logic, but it doesn't, and Live isn't offering the ability to SysEx hardware synths to a project, or multiple versions in the same open project etc.

I think they all have strong points, and DP's is definitely the fact that Chunks allow multiple versions of a song to be readily available in a project, and it's mixer. (at least IMO)

[HCMarkus]

Time to move on...

...from DP 6.02 to DP7. My copy arrived today.

[bdr]

With nothing really to add to this except have a whinge, I am working with a Logic user (a loop/techno guy) on an orchestral mockup and it is driving me crazy! -specifically it's handling of automation of multi-instruments. Automating the volume of one MIDI channel of a plugin affects ALL MIDI channels of that plugin. I have googled and searched all the Logic help forums only to be confronted by either arcane fixes in the environment, or the (serious!) suggestion by an author of a well known Logic help book to 'open separate instances for every instrument!'. What the heck?!

I thought this project would be a good way for me to get stuck into Logic as I have previously taken a Logic 101 course to help my students, so I'm not a complete Logic beginner, but I just don't get it.