Is DP 7 worth it?

[KEVORKIAN]

I just don't quite understand how amp modeling and stomp box effects have to be included for it to be a "guitarist's DAW?" I mean how much of a market is this for starters? But besides that... don't guitarists own amplifiers, and if making too much noise in home studios is an issue, don't they own PODs or other hardware modelers? I'm one of those guitarists for whom DP has worked great, because I guess I looked at it as software for recording songs... not for supplanting a guitar amp or modeling. Certainly as guitarists our "tone" is somewhat established before choosing a DAW.

It seems to me that more and more young players are looking at modeling solutions first before buying amps, etc. For those that are already comfortable with POD, etc and are looking to branch out to a DAW, a guitar sim would be a pretty attractive feature I would imagine.

Before DAWs, back in the tape days let's say, did we choose a recording studio so we could you their in-house amplifier(s) (or amp modeling hardware if any)? Or did we choose a recording studio based on the quality of the end product it produced or that we liked the facility and the engineer and felt comfortable there? Should this not be the same today with a DAW?

See... this concept to me is the crux of the issue. I love DP because it honors the traditional paradigm of a recording studio as we know it. Pro Tools is also like this. Products like Logic and Live attempt to look beyond this paradigm and to imagine what recording would be life if there was no paradigm of a studio to base things on.

If someone were coming to this without any concept of a traditional recording studio paradigm, then having a Guitar Sim in the box would seem pretty natural.

Some of the demo songs that are included with Logic use the amp sims as track warmers and subtle distortion effects on drums and acoustic guitars, which goes to show easily Logic users and producers reach for the included effects in many instances.

I've used the analogy before, but I'll say again that choosing a DAW based on included guitar amp sims or pedals is like buying a car for the stereo system. I do hope that MOTU's participation in this possible fad of chasing guitarists yields meaningful returns for them. It's something of a "bandwagon" thing it seems. I guess with Digi's new hardware box, etc, the big push is on to eliminate amplifiers and microphones from the process of recording guitar. I remain skeptical.

Do you think it's a fad though? Guitarists are some of the main purchasers of music technology and gadgets. I bought a 4-Track before any drummer or bassist I knew and now kids buy daws...

I remember seeing Magic Dave at Mac World NY ages ago with a guitar on and jamming through Polar. It was one of the reasons I started using DP seriously.
At that time there was nothing like Polar in any DAW. Now Apple has Mainstage and the bar has been raised, so these amp simulations are certainly welcome in DP...

The car is the stereo.

[James Steele]

Before DAWs, back in the tape days let's say, did we choose a recording studio so we could you their in-house amplifier(s) (or amp modeling hardware if any)? Or did we choose a recording studio based on the quality of the end product it produced or that we liked the facility and the engineer and felt comfortable there? Should this not be the same today with a DAW?

See... this concept to me is the crux of the issue. I love DP because it honors the traditional paradigm of a recording studio as we know it. Pro Tools is also like this. Products like Logic and Live attempt to look beyond this paradigm and to imagine what recording would be life if there was no paradigm of a studio to base things on.

If someone were coming to this without any concept of a traditional recording studio paradigm, then having a Guitar Sim in the box would seem pretty natural.

Right... they also seem to be coming into this without any concept of a traditonal guitarist paradigm as well. Meaning potentially they have not played with a band prior to this, so they do not own an amp, or they do not own a POD (or similar hardware). Do these people simply own an electric guitar and whatever amp sim is in the DAW is what they plan on recording with?

Hmmm... I guess I'm too old to get it, having looked at playing guitar as a standalone activity that can indeed be SEPARATE from the recording studio or a DAW. I suppose the question "What amp do you use?" is supposed to be obsolete? Nobody will say "Are you a Mesa guy? Marshall guy? Fender guy?" Nope, says today's modern 20-something home guitarist/recordist... "I play Logic" or "I play Record."

This is me shaking me head. I guess the process is turned reverse. Once a kid gets out of his bedroom studio playing his guitar sim plug in his DAW, he might venture outside and someday buy an amplifier... or perhaps I suppose a laptop with an interface. I suppose if you don't know what you're missing...

[James Steele]

P.S. This last post has me so depressed, I'm going to go out into the studio and play through my two Marshall full-stacks right now! 1979 JMP 100-watt heads into 4x12 Vintage 30 cabs! AHHHHHHHH!!!

[Guitar Gaz]

I just don't quite understand how amp modeling and stomp box effects have to be included for it to be a "guitarist's DAW?" I mean how much of a market is this for starters? But besides that... don't guitarists own amplifiers, and if making too much noise in home studios is an issue, don't they own PODs or other hardware modelers? I'm one of those guitarists for whom DP has worked great, because I guess I looked at it as software for recording songs... not for supplanting a guitar amp or modeling. Certainly as guitarists our "tone" is somewhat established before choosing a DAW.

Before DAWs, back in the tape days let's say, did we choose a recording studio so we could you their in-house amplifier(s) (or amp modeling hardware if any)? Or did we choose a recording studio based on the quality of the end product it produced or that we liked the facility and the engineer and felt comfortable there? Should this not be the same today with a DAW?

I've used the analogy before, but I'll say again that choosing a DAW based on included guitar amp sims or pedals is like buying a car for the stereo system. I do hope that MOTU's participation in this possible fad of chasing guitarists yields meaningful returns for them. It's something of a "bandwagon" thing it seems. I guess with Digi's new hardware box, etc, the big push is on to eliminate amplifiers and microphones from the process of recording guitar. I remain skeptical.

All I can say is the reason they are doing it is to make it easier for guitarists to just plug in, without the need for amps or amp sim hardware, and record something monitoring with a decent tone that can be changed later if necessary . The number of amp sim software packages about clearly indicate this is a great thing. Before DAW's only a lucky few could afford to use recording studios - and if you think that DP should mainly be for established professionals who have their own "tone" already, then clearly oiks like me don't belong here. I did use to be a professional engineer in a top London studio in the 1970's, and certainly people chose us for the sound and the facilities. DP adding amp sims is no different from studios changing from 8 track to 16 track and so on. I am primarily an amateur guitarist now and like to record my own stuff with no pretension to "making it" - included guitar amp sims seem a great and long overdue addition to DP. But obviously I am not a professional with my own established "tone" - DP with amp sims seems like a no brainer to me - remember when we had sequencers and then audio was added and gradually all DAW's copied the best and most popular features - how is this different? Having just seen Morrissey last night at the Albert Hall I didn't see any amp sims being used so I doubt amps will die out just yet. When I play live I use an amp. But I guess I am one of "these people" - you are no doubt younger than me but man you sound old.....

[Guitar Gaz]

I just don't quite understand how amp modeling and stomp box effects have to be included for it to be a "guitarist's DAW?" I mean how much of a market is this for starters? But besides that... don't guitarists own amplifiers, and if making too much noise in home studios is an issue, don't they own PODs or other hardware modelers? I'm one of those guitarists for whom DP has worked great, because I guess I looked at it as software for recording songs... not for supplanting a guitar amp or modeling. Certainly as guitarists our "tone" is somewhat established before choosing a DAW.

Before DAWs, back in the tape days let's say, did we choose a recording studio so we could you their in-house amplifier(s) (or amp modeling hardware if any)? Or did we choose a recording studio based on the quality of the end product it produced or that we liked the facility and the engineer and felt comfortable there? Should this not be the same today with a DAW?

I've used the analogy before, but I'll say again that choosing a DAW based on included guitar amp sims or pedals is like buying a car for the stereo system. I do hope that MOTU's participation in this possible fad of chasing guitarists yields meaningful returns for them. It's something of a "bandwagon" thing it seems. I guess with Digi's new hardware box, etc, the big push is on to eliminate amplifiers and microphones from the process of recording guitar. I remain skeptical.

All I can say is the reason they are doing it is to make it easier for guitarists to just plug in, without the need for amps or amp sim hardware, and record something monitoring with a decent tone that can be changed later if necessary . The number of amp sim software packages about clearly indicate this is a great thing. Before DAW's only a lucky few could afford to use recording studios - and if you think that DP should mainly be for established professionals who have their own "tone" already, then clearly oiks like me don't belong here. I did use to be a professional engineer in a top London studio in the 1970's, and certainly people chose us for the sound and the facilities. DP adding amp sims is no different from studios changing from 8 track to 16 track and so on. I am primarily an amateur guitarist now and like to record my own stuff with no pretension to "making it" - included guitar amp sims seem a great and long overdue addition to DP. But obviously I am not a professional with my own established "tone" - DP with amp sims seems like a no brainer to me - remember when we had sequencers and then audio was added and gradually all DAW's copied the best and most popular features - how is this different? Having just seen Morrissey last night at the Albert Hall I didn't see any amp sims being used so I doubt amps will die out just yet. When I play live I use an amp. But I guess I am one of "these people" - you are no doubt younger than me but man you sound old.....

That was me resigning from this forum by the way as I clearly don't belong with you elitist pros - thanks to many of you for your help and advice.

[zed]

That was me resigning from this forum by the way as I clearly don't belong with you elitist pros - thanks to many of you for your help and advice.

Oh come on. Does it really have to be this way? Please reconsider. There's no need abandon the forum.

[KEVORKIAN]

That was me resigning from this forum by the way as I clearly don't belong with you elitist pros - thanks to many of you for your help and advice.

Oh come on. Does it really have to be this way? Please reconsider. There's no need abandon the forum.

Yeah... this is a public forum where we share opinions. James is as entitled to his view as you are to yours but because they are different is no reason for you to feel slighted!

[James Steele]

I just don't quite understand how amp modeling and stomp box effects have to be included for it to be a "guitarist's DAW?" I mean how much of a market is this for starters? But besides that... don't guitarists own amplifiers, and if making too much noise in home studios is an issue, don't they own PODs or other hardware modelers? I'm one of those guitarists for whom DP has worked great, because I guess I looked at it as software for recording songs... not for supplanting a guitar amp or modeling. Certainly as guitarists our "tone" is somewhat established before choosing a DAW.

Before DAWs, back in the tape days let's say, did we choose a recording studio so we could you their in-house amplifier(s) (or amp modeling hardware if any)? Or did we choose a recording studio based on the quality of the end product it produced or that we liked the facility and the engineer and felt comfortable there? Should this not be the same today with a DAW?

I've used the analogy before, but I'll say again that choosing a DAW based on included guitar amp sims or pedals is like buying a car for the stereo system. I do hope that MOTU's participation in this possible fad of chasing guitarists yields meaningful returns for them. It's something of a "bandwagon" thing it seems. I guess with Digi's new hardware box, etc, the big push is on to eliminate amplifiers and microphones from the process of recording guitar. I remain skeptical.

All I can say is the reason they are doing it is to make it easier for guitarists to just plug in, without the need for amps or amp sim hardware, and record something monitoring with a decent tone that can be changed later if necessary . The number of amp sim software packages about clearly indicate this is a great thing. Before DAW's only a lucky few could afford to use recording studios - and if you think that DP should mainly be for established professionals who have their own "tone" already, then clearly oiks like me don't belong here. I did use to be a professional engineer in a top London studio in the 1970's, and certainly people chose us for the sound and the facilities. DP adding amp sims is no different from studios changing from 8 track to 16 track and so on. I am primarily an amateur guitarist now and like to record my own stuff with no pretension to "making it" - included guitar amp sims seem a great and long overdue addition to DP. But obviously I am not a professional with my own established "tone" - DP with amp sims seems like a no brainer to me - remember when we had sequencers and then audio was added and gradually all DAW's copied the best and most popular features - how is this different? Having just seen Morrissey last night at the Albert Hall I didn't see any amp sims being used so I doubt amps will die out just yet. When I play live I use an amp. But I guess I am one of "these people" - you are no doubt younger than me but man you sound old.....

That was me resigning from this forum by the way as I clearly don't belong with you elitist pros - thanks to many of you for your help and advice.

I don't know why you took my post so personally. What I'm trying to say is that IN MY OPINION the quality or even existence of included amp simulation plugs is just ONE of many criteria for choosing a DAW. Further, IN MY OPINION, it should take a backseat to ease of use and workflow and other factors. Now if companies can convince guitarists to buy a DAW for guitar modeling and then just commit to that particular DAW's recording features and workflow as an afterthought without investigating other DAWs to see which is the best fit for them when it comes to the other 80% of tasks they will engage in when not actually tracking guitar, then that's a good strategy.

Again, all I'm saying is that amp modeling really shouldn't be the ONLY criteria or primary criteria when choosing something as elaborate as a DAW-- because you will be making a committment to this tool that may last many years. JUST MY OPINION. If you want to call me an elitist for expressing it and fall on your sword... well you know me well enough to know that I don't care. I make no apologies for expressing my opinion. I didn't insult your or intend to.

[James Steele]

P.S. I should also say that with the may 3rd party amp sim plug-in options available as alluded to, choosing a DAW for the built-in amp sim might be unnecessary. I honestly would be surprised if Custom 59 is going be the feature that brings large numbers of new users in the Digital Performer camp. Frankly, from what I've heard Steven Tyler of Aerosmith uses DP, and one backpage ad in EM with Steven Tyler or Joe Perry would probably make a bigger impact. I always thought MOTU should play up and advertise some of the big names that are using DP.

[kassonica]

I'm going to go out into the studio and play through my two Marshall full-stacks right now! 1979 JMP 100-watt heads into 4x12 Vintage 30 cabs! AHHHHHHHH!!!

No DAW or pod or simulations can come close to this yet.................

I'm not going to sell my 1976 marshall combo or my 74 Princeton anytime soon I can tell you.

[Crashdown]

Hi Guys,

Do you think it would be safe now to upgrade from DP5.13 and OSX Tiger, to DP7 and Snow Leopard?

I'm still getting crashes on 5.13 when I put all those crossfades on sliced drumtracks... it simply gets too heavy for my Quad 2.66 with 5GB Ram.

How is DP7 handling UAD-2 plug-ins and the Eucon protocol??

Any issues with other 3rd party stuff?

Stability is what I need!

Greetings to you all, and long live all the lovely guitar amps, where we just love to plug our guitars in and strike them strings as the tubes go hotter and hotter... it's all about the scream that comes out of those cabinets! Nothing will ever come close to that.
(my tribute to James Steele)

[kassonica]

Well DP7 has real time fades now and they work extremely well.

That alone should tell you to upgrade.......

[bayswater]

P.S. This last post has me so depressed, I'm going to go out into the studio and play through my two Marshall full-stacks right now! 1979 JMP 100-watt heads into 4x12 Vintage 30 cabs! AHHHHHHHH!!!

You must have had this feeling before. I've had it for ages. 20 years ago I jammed with someone who said something like "this is really cool, you play the guitar! I just play effects".

[HCMarkus]

Every one in a while, someone here "resigns" in a fit. Always makes me a little sad, 'cause, despite our sometimes differing viewpoints, we are all moving in the same general direction, albeit, with a variety specific goals, and I don't see any reason (absent destructive rants aimed at others) for exclusion, self-imposed or otherwise.

If there is one thing I have proven to myself beyond a doubt, it is this: the written word tends to be perceived more negatively than that which is spoken. Ye olde "Write it down, but pause and review it before posting" rule is a good one to keep in mind if there is any critical component to one's words, (or if bridges are to be torched.)

I have learned an awful lot here at the Nation, and sincerely appreciate the input of all who take the time and energy to offer it. And while I don't always agree with everything that is said, I often find myself re-thinking "facts" of which I was previously certain when challenged by the differing opinions of my fellow engineers, producers, songwriters and artists.

[James Steele]

Do you think it would be safe now to upgrade from DP5.13 and OSX Tiger, to DP7 and Snow Leopard?

I'm still getting crashes on 5.13 when I put all those crossfades on sliced drumtracks... it simply gets too heavy for my Quad 2.66 with 5GB Ram.

How is DP7 handling UAD-2 plug-ins and the Eucon protocol??

Any issues with other 3rd party stuff?

Stability is what I need!

Well, the realtime crossfades sounds like just the ticket for what you're doing in that's new in DP 7.01. Personally, my advice would be to upgrade and install DP 7.01 on your Tiger system and see how it goes and wait a while for Snow Leopard because some people are reporting mixed results. But it would just be safer anyway to take it in two steps like that.

Greetings to you all, and long live all the lovely guitar amps, where we just love to plug our guitars in and strike them strings as the tubes go hotter and hotter... it's all about the scream that comes out of those cabinets! Nothing will ever come close to that. (my tribute to James Steele)

Well thanks for the tribute. I really am trying to stay on guard about becoming dogmatic about amps when it comes to guitar. My problem is that I do indeed have a setup I like very much and so the plug-in simulations don't really appeal to me. As far as "nothing will ever come close"... I have no doubt that some day, when you throw enough effort and technology at the problem... they might very well nail it. I just feel they haven't yet from my experience, although admittedly I don't have the opportunity (or funds) to experiment with all the options. I've found something that works and I'm just too busy to investigate many of the plugs as they've been a disappointment when I have. But I have learned never to say "never."