Well, it's not so black and white about DP plugs. I've made albums with them, back when the only other choice was Waves and a few others, and I had Waves and could have used that, but DP's EQs were every bit as good. So I used DP's EQ's. Now they have a fantastic EQ, but that's beside the point. The real point is that DP's plugins may be aging, but they're not awful. They may look old, but they still work fine. I mainly use Waves plugins myself, but I have no qualms about DP's lineup if I need to use them, as I do when I'm out with my Powerbook. So what I'm really saying is that there's no place here for calling that stuff crap. It's just not.Armageddon wrote:I do think the audio plugs in Logic and Cubase are more comprehensive than the ones in DP -- that's kind of always been the case (and Cubase actually goes the extra mile and puts dynamics and EQ stock on every channel). However, let's look at the facts: they almost have to be to make up for the programs' other deficiencies. DP started out as a MIDI program, then followed suite (or is it the other way around?) with Cakewalk and added audio capabilities (presumably, to add vocals and guitars to your keyboard compositions) before becoming a full-blown audio/MIDI DAW. I think they've gotten their audio act more or less together, their MIDI features have always been the best ... but their plugs haven't been updated since the days of FreeMIDI. Granted, there's plenty of people who like the included plugs and use them religiously, but I don't think I've ever dropped a MOTU plug on any track, aside from maybe the two-band EQ when I wanted to shelve some low end, and only because it was the least-CPU-intensive alternative (I've tried using T-RackS EQ, but it tends to add unwanted color). It's a bummer from the perspective of having to buy a lot of third-party plugs to compensate, but it's worth it to me, because I love DP and can't imagine using another program.
That being said, no program's included plugs are gonna be as good as a third-party solution -- some may even suggest this design is on purpose, so DAW manufacturers aren't competing with their third-party plugin providers -- and while having a great included plugin set may work to get someone started in the wonderful world of computer sound engineering, you unfortunately have to drop some cash to get the comprehensive tools you want.
James, I didn't mean to "lob a grenade"; if you and Shoosh (we've had long posted discussions about the merits of DP's plugs and VIs) dig DP's plugs, then that's what works for you. I was actually pointing out that Leveler is a free plug, like Trim or DC Offset, and that if people are having problems with it, go back to using third party solutions, as they would have if Leveler wasn't included. My problem with both Leveler and ProVerb is that it feels like MOTU feels the need to compete with Logic and Cubase, rather than focus on what makes DP specifically so great in the first place.
Next, let's get the history correct. DP was the first front end for Pro Tools that combined MIDI and audio. Period. DP was the rage in Hollywood during the 1990s, and every musician with a record contract rode around with his Powerbook and DP with his/her latest mixes. The other MIDI apps did their best, but DP was at the top of the heap. It's only real competitor was Vision for a long time. When computers got fast enough to handle more than 2 or 4 channels of audio, DP led the pack in native audio. The only advantage that Cubase had was that it ran on a PC, and PCs cost about half what Macs cost back then. Until Steve Jobs came back, they were faster, too. But that gets into the old wars about the PPC RISC processors vs. the Pentiums, and the pipelines that carried 4 times the work load per CPU cycle, and so forth. Anyway, Macs still held the edge for audio production, whether it be with Pro Tools, DP, or Vision. Then Vision sadly disappeared, leaving Pro Tools and DP, plus this obscure, arcane tech toy called Logic. Logic was complicated and it took twice as long to do anything, but it had its adherents. Still, I think most of the audio world was surprised -- no, shocked -- when Apple chose Logic as their audio development platform. Rumor had it they talked to MOTU, but MOTU wouldn't budge, or something, but that's all just rumor, and there's never been anything to substantiate that. But sometimes I wish they HAD.
I wrote the Wikipedia article about DP some time back. You can look up the history there, but every so often people come along and rip it apart, leaving so little of the history that it's practically worthless. I have restored it a few times. Currently it's about 1/5 the size it used to be. There's also a timelinethat fairly well nails down some of the history using MOTU's own brochures. It's pretty informative.
It's always been fashionable to try to pull down DP. MOTU has always been a quirky company that does things its own way, despite what anyone else thought, and strangely, they've always ended up being on top of things again and again, after the initial ridicule died down. Here lately, I'd say they made some big mistakes, but they've moved pretty quickly to correct them as best they can. If past performance patterns are any indication, DP 6.12 or 6.13 will be incredibly nice to use. But here's the bottom line: when you hear a project made in DP played next to a project made in Pro Tools, each by a master of his tools, you can't tell which app was used for which project. A Waves engineer once told me that DP actually used their processors with greater accuracy than Pro Tools. That was probably 5 years ago, though, and may not be the case anymore.
I've probably ground my point into the dirt, but let me just emphasize it once more: Nothing about DP is crap. It may or may not be your favorite app. I encourage everyone to use two or three, just so they know what they're really dealing with. I have Logic and DP, but prefer DP over Logic any day. And I could mix a project with all DP plugins, possibly excepting reverb, and I'd defy anyone to choose it out of a lineup and say it's obviously DP because it sounds like crap!
Shooshie
