DP and Logic DO sound different

[James Steele]

But to keep putting this discussion into a perspective that matters to professional creators: It is irrelevant (or rather, not so relevant) if different DAWs sound slightly different from one another (within reason.) It is very relevant if different DAWs print different files if given the same input.

Depends just how slight, I guess... right?

For example, I was considering the Black Lion mod for my HD192 and talked to someone on the phone there. I mentioned to him that actually since I was mixing in the box now and since that was all number crunching anyway... what good was it for the analog outs to sound a little better, when really regardless of that, my bounce to disk would be the same either way. He pointed out rightly that this was true, but I was still monitoring through those analog outputs and mixing based on what I was hearing coming out of them. Better sound from them meant that my mixing choices would be slightly different and thus the BTD would not be the same as if I made them mixing through an un-modded unit.

I just throw that out there because if there is such a thing as a "sound of a DAW" you're sculpting mixes while listening to THAT sound and that will have an influence on how you mix something. At least that's my knee-jerk 2 cents worth.

[Kubi]

Completely agree, James, but at this point I'd still venture to say that compared to DA, amp, speakers and room, the differences between differnt DAW's "sounds" is virtually nil. However, if it turns out to be any more than 'negligible", then of course it's a problem, for the very reason you mention: You can only mix what you hear.

[Shooshie]

Sometimes this sort of conversation about sound reproduction reminds me of the old argument among pianists and engineers. I've heard so many pianists make the claim that their touch on the keys makes a difference in the sound. Now this is true if you're talking about the playing of a musical line, but they claim just one note. A single note. That their touch can affect a single note in a way that no machine can ever reproduce. I've heard that used as an argument against the Yamaha Disklavier and other player pianos, or as simply a topic starter to create a big argument. The fact is, of course, that nobody can influence the sound of a single note on a piano by their touch alone. The hammer strikes the string at a given velocity. If a Disklavier reproduces exactly the same velocity of that hammer, then there can be no difference. The string will vibrate according to the physics of the hammer's material striking the stationary string at a given velocity, and the escape mechanism allowing for the hammer to rebound. The human finger simply cannot manipulate this mechanical link any more subtly than a machine. But some pianists will argue that one into the ground. It's a great argument for insinuating that the engineer simply hasn't the ears to hear the difference, but in test after test, double-blind studies show that no human can tell the difference between a single note produced by a human or a mechanical device on a piano. Logic says it's impossible. Tests support the logic. But some people just like to argue.

Now of course if we're talking about a musical line, that may be another story, depending on the accuracy with which a Disklavier reproduces what it records, but a single note? No way.

Sorry about the sidetrack... it's just that every time I hear the one debate, I think of the other, too. And probably lots of others.

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Now of course if we're talking about a musical line, that may be another story, depending on the accuracy with which a Disklavier reproduces what it records, but a single note? No way.

Sorry about the sidetrack... it's just that every time I hear the one debate, I think of the other, too. And probably lots of others.

Shooshie

As a pianist of many years, I agree. Of course if all I could play was a single note (even if I got it right every time) I wouldn't have much of a career. But there is an exception. Keith Jarrett. It's not the piano that is effected, but the player. Keith will play a single note and go into organisms. Does it sound different? To him, you betcha! To us... not so much.

[monkey man]

A penist? Figures, Magilla. LOL

[MIDI Life Crisis]

A penist? Figures, Magilla. LOL

Thanks, Nicky. That really moved things forward...

[Shooshie]

Now of course if we're talking about a musical line, that may be another story, depending on the accuracy with which a Disklavier reproduces what it records, but a single note? No way.

Sorry about the sidetrack... it's just that every time I hear the one debate, I think of the other, too. And probably lots of others.

Shooshie

As a pianist of many years, I agree. Of course if all I could play was a single note (even if I got it right every time) I wouldn't have much of a career. But there is an exception. Keith Jarrett. It's not the piano that is effected, but the player. Keith will play a single note and go into organisms. Does it sound different? To him, you betcha! To us... not so much.

I love listening to Keith. The DVD's, however, have been troublesome, for now I can SEE him. But I always remember what Miles said about Keith -- something to the effect that he was the only guy who could always make him smile. Hell, I'm surprised he wasn't doubled over laughing!

Of course, we're wayyy off topic now, but really, does it freaking matter if there is a barely perceptible difference between DP and Logic? Burn a CD and go play it in three different machines in three different locations, and see if it still matters so much. I had a client once who would take my mix and put it in her boom box. This was some Wal-Mart box with a button that said MEGA-POWERBASS on it, and you couldn't tell what was going on at all except for this awful roar that was "bass." Megapowerbass, I presume. She wanted it to sound good on THAT box, because, she figured, all her listeners would own one. By the time she approved, there wasn't any bass left. Put it on a normal stereo system and it sounded like cheap headphones. What difference would Logic have made? Or a billion-dollar SSL board? Come to think of it, I think I had that one-piano-key argument with her, too. She won, of course; the client is always right.

Shooshie

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Ah, yes. Reminds me of my client on a feature recently that "tested" my 5.1 mix in BestBuy amidst Madonna and Arnold in the adjacent isles. A few $1k later they realized that there was nothing wrong with the mix. <sigh> But yes, the client is always 'right' and I did what I could to 'fix' a mix that was fine to start with.

[bongo_x]

First I'm just going to agree with everything Kubi said.

A null test is WAY beyond just looking at frequency response. You can print the exact same mix from a DAW to DAT (analog) and print them back in and they won't null. You cannot hear a difference in the mixes.
If two tracks null out they are the same. One can argue all day about spirits and the love in the air but it doesn't change that simple fact. We are listening to sets of a finite number of bits. If those sets of bits null each other out there is nothing else there to cause any difference. There is no other information, this isn't tape.

Whether DAW's sound different when listening is interesting, but not that important. Monitors sound different. Move your head a couple inches and it sounds different. When the humidity changes it sounds different. You may make different decisions based on the sound, but you really get used to the tools you have and should be able to make good decisions based on that.

bb

[Shooshie]

Wear a cap with a brim, and it sounds different. Different enough to make you reach for your EQ. Putting your hands behind your ears gives you super-hearing, too! All clients should listen with hands behind their ears.

Shoosh

[kassonica]

Wear a cap with a brim, and it sounds different. Different enough to make you reach for your EQ. Putting your hands behind your ears gives you super-hearing, too! All clients should listen with hands behind their ears.

Shoosh

Best thing thats happened to me today is reading that post.

Thanks

[HCMarkus]

Hats off to Shooshie for coming thru for us again!

[Resonant Alien]

I don't know what it is about this and similar topics that gets everyone's panties in a wad and makes everyone so defensive. You guys are right - who cares if there is a difference - I certainly do not care, and that was not the point of my post. I didn't come out saying "DP sux, Logic sounds waaaay better, you guys are a bunch of losers if you can't hear how crappy DP sounds in comparison". That is not what I said, nor is that what I believe, but the defensiveness of some of the posts, and the immaturity of others, may have been more appropriate if that had been what I said.

I simply made an observation and the point of my post was to see if anyone else had similar experiences. I thought it an interesting topic of discussion. Maybe I didn’t phrase it exactly right, but I certainly didn’t phrase it as “Logic blows DP away”.

In the context of this thread, I don't care if the waveforms cancel or not. I am talking about an observation I made about what I heard and wanted to see if there were others who heard similar differences. Sure, there is a modicum of scientific evidence against, but I wanted to see if, in spite of seemingly conslusive objective evidence, there are other people who still perceive a difference (note operative word perceive). (Again, maybe I didn’t phrase my original post exactly that way).

I would think that fellow musicians would find it an interesting topic and be interested in a mature, meaningful discussion on that topic. But too often, we instead get derisive, immature remarks that seek to belittle and undermine the integrity and validity of the person’s observation, and provide no inherent value to the discussion at hand. More interestingly, there seems to be an underlying enjoyment derived from acting in this way. Until I started visiting internet forums, I had always thought that this kind of clique behavior was limited to Junior High School locker rooms. But there is something sublimely anonymous about posting on internet forums that seems to turn people who are probably very nice individuals in person into jerks in the Ether.

I don't know why it is such a hard concept to grasp that it is possible for DAWs to sound different (note I said 'possible' not that I have conclusive evidence that they do). Just because it is all digital does not mean that each audio engine is going to spit out the same result based on the same input. Each DAW uses its own computational methods to crunch the various pieces of data and spit out a result. Why does this seem like a foreign concept? In fact, given that no two DAWs would do the exact same computation, I would argue that it is impossible for two DAWs to spit out the exact same result. You may need to go to several decimal places to get the variance, and the results might be similar enough to cancel out in a simple null test, but from a theoretical perspective, it is impossible for the outputs to be the same, and the fact that we perceive them to be the same is more a limitation of our ability to hear with enough resolution to hear the differences than any conclusive proof that they are in fact the same. So, which level of 'objectivity' do we go with - a test which is by default limited in what information it can understandably provide to us, or the mathematical formula that shows the results cannot be the same based on the variance of the black box the inputs are put into?

BTW - I was surprised to discover that we have several people here who are not only musicians and recording engineers but are also experts in human biology and physics as well.

Stick a fork in it already....

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I don't know what it is about this and similar topics that gets everyone's panties in a wad and makes everyone so defensive... ... ... ...

Stick a fork in it already....

Maybe because we're passionate about our work?

I've seen the threads before (DAW A sounds better than DAW B, etc.), and I never believed a bit of it. But I had an experience today that has changed my mind.

...

I hesitated to post this because it always seems to ignite a flame war, but the differences were there and they were real.

Weird...

Your initial post seemed to appeal for some critical review (not in the negative sense, but in the scientific sense) of your findings. We responded.

If it is a critical review, people are going to make comments that sound... well... critical. That is very much a part of the empirical process. Another big part is data, which is why I asked you to post sound files and why others argued for data analysis ("argued" not in the negative sense of the word but more as in 'defense' of a theory or legal position in court; these are not so unrelated in terms of being skilled at debate).

It is so easy in a forum (non-live chat room basically) for someone to "say" something or ask something that another thinks is "dumb" or mean-spirited. And sometimes it is. OTOH, when a member says there is a scientific way to verify that a file and it's resulting sound is IDENTICAL to another (and if that is an accepted practice in the real world) the response should not be a knee jerk "I don't believe that" but rather more of an "Oh really? Where can I get more information and I'll check that out?" If it checks out (and I'd bet it does) then why not try it?

All that said, RAlien, is to let you know that at least from my perspective, I thought the initial post was interesting and worth responding to. I also thought a lot of interesting comments came out of the thread. One in particular was, IMO, the best. It was from Shooshie who said 'wear a hat' and the sound is different. It's true. It is a VERY delicate thing, sound is.

So indeed, stick a fork in it, then cut it with a knife - no, make that a scalpel - chew on it and digest it. There's a lot to learn in this thread. Some old beliefs might be shattered. If they're wrong, that's a good thing. Some new realities might be learned, that's an even better thing.

I get the sense from your post that you're angry and maybe a little embarrassed by having posted in the first place. If that's so, please don't be. IMO, it is this kind of thread that makes Motunation so much better than most other kinds of places like this. Brain food. Yum!

[bongo_x]

I don't know what it is about this and similar topics that gets everyone's panties in a wad and makes everyone so defensive. ...But too often, we instead get derisive, immature remarks that seek to belittle and undermine the integrity and validity of the person’s observation, and provide no inherent value to the discussion at hand. More interestingly, there seems to be an underlying enjoyment derived from acting in this way. Until I started visiting internet forums, I had always thought that this kind of clique behavior was limited to Junior High School locker rooms. But there is something sublimely anonymous about posting on internet forums that seems to turn people who are probably very nice individuals in person into jerks in the Ether....

I think you are possibly falling for the old internet trick of reading something that wasn't written. I don't see a bunch of defensive/aggressive arguments going on here. I just see people discussing the idea.

I think you're taking things way too personally that weren't intended that way.

bb