4.6 mixes are different in 5.1

[Steve Sunner]

Hey everybody,

I realize most of you probably upgraded from 4.6 to something else a long time ago, as did I, but I have just recently discovered that my projects that were mixed in 4.6 do not sound the same in 5.1 (which is what I'm using now).

I discovered the problem when I recently had to go back for revisions on a project that I last touched in March 2006 and, upon bringing up the project, was dismayed with how flat my mix sounded. When I left off with the project in 2006, the last thing I did was bounce the mix to an SDII file that was added to the sequence window. I was using 4.6 at the time. The bounce track had the liveliness I remembered. When I reverse phase on this track against the Aux channel that I use for my mix output, it does not cancel out on my DP computer in either 5.1 or 4.6. I took another G5 I had on hand that has never had DP on it and installed just DP 4.6 and opened the same project and did the same phase cancel test and it canceled out perfectly. So...5.1 has changed all my old mixes. Running the same test on other old projects yields the same results.

Needless to say, this is a disaster.

This seems like the kind of thing that MOTU or the DP using public in general might already be aware of and have a solution for. That's what I'm hoping for anyway. It has proven a difficult problem to keyword search for and MOTU tech support is, as usual, absolutely useless unless you can cryogenically freeze yourself while waiting for an answer. Any help would be a life-saver.

Thanks,
Steve

[kassonica]

First thing I would do is update to DP5.13.

MAybe if you post the files (mixes) we maybe able to help you more.

[EMRR]

VERY interesting. Wish I could contribute more. Sounds like you've done a reasonable test to confirm lack of personal insanity, as is always required at times like this.

PERFECT SOUND FOREVER was, and still is, a lie.

The first question is, why would playback processing in 4.6 now be different? Changes and upgrades to plug-ins and other core bits shared by both versions, and updated by 5.1?

Clearly you are getting original results on the new machine, so is this a practical problem or a theoretical one? Most projects don't ever rear up from the dead again, so it's a moot point to most users. And it sounds like you have the means to continue on as it was, just not from 5.1. Not meaning to be trite here, but being one who mixes in the analog world, I expect to have lots of work present itself when remixing raises it's head. No idea how complex your mixes are, of course.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

So I am curious, did you try running the old 4.6 project on the G5 from DP 4.6 and was the sound as good as the original? That would be the first test I'd try, not just phase cancellation.

What else has changed from 2006? Anything?

Could you have bounced in real time from an external module or source thru a mixer that is not there now - or is now setup differently?

Are all the plug ins the same as they were in 2006? Were any of those "updated" by the mfg?

Was the mix done on a different Mac? Surely it was in a different OS, and perhaps changes in the way the OS is handling AU's may be affecting your sound.

There are a lot of things that could have (and probably did) change. If we are talking MIDI, all DP is doing is playing back a series of instructions. If we are talking audio, DP should be playing back a digital file. Any differences from there are more likely the result of how DP is processing that information thru AUs and plug-ins.

Maybe you can put up a small sample of the 2006 and 2008 versions and we could actually hear the differences. EQ? Reverb? Compression?

[David Polich]

I've fallen into this scenario before. At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, and with no offense meant at all and complete empathy, my opinion is that your hearing and perception of sound has changed.

Call it "evolved" if you like. I listened to a CD I produced in 1997 the other day. The last time I listened to it was in March 2007. At that point I thought, "damn", it still holds up". This time around, I asked myself, "what was I thinking? This is an ill-defined slushy mess!" I chalk it up to the increased attention to details I have accrued in a little over a year's time.

I've opened a lot of projects in 5.13 that were 4.61 projects. I really don't notice any difference in the sound overall, except for details I'd forgotten or hadn't fixed.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I've fallen into this scenario before. At the risk of sounding politically incorrect, and with no offense meant at all and complete empathy, my opinion is that your hearing and perception of sound has changed.

Call it "evolved" if you like. I listened to a CD I produced in 1997 the other day. The last time I listened to it was in March 2007. At that point I thought, "damn", it still holds up". This time around, I asked myself, "what was I thinking? This is an ill-defined slushy mess!" I chalk it up to the increased attention to details I have accrued in a little over a year's time.

I've opened a lot of projects in 5.13 that were 4.61 projects. I really don't notice any difference in the sound overall, except for details I'd forgotten or hadn't fixed.

Didn't he say he bounced it and the bounced mix sounded OK? That would kind of kill your theory. I agree that hearing does change, but I suspect something less human and more digital - like some plug ins or Core Audio or some other factors may have changed the sound.

Then again, there is the old trick of providing a producer with 4 or 5 identical cuts to choose from and they will swear that one in particular is a better mix. I'm not sayin' that's what is going on here... but it's always a possibility as well.

Ultimately, you gotta listen to your ears...

[Steve Sunner]

Hey,

Thanks for the replies. Just to be perfectly clear, there is no possibility of this being a subjective foible of perception:

I have a project that has a bounce that was done in 4.6 that WILL NOT phase cancel out with the mix as it sounds in 5.1. When I do a fresh bounce of the 5.1 mix (in 5.1) it DOES cancel out with the mix aux. The 5.1 bounce and the 4.6 bounce DO NOT cancel out with each other. There have been absolutely NO changes in the mix since the 4.6 bounce. I have then gone and run the same test on three other projects that were created in 4.6 and the results were identical. Furthermore, I grabbed my G5 from work and brought it back to my studio and installed 4.6 on it (not 5.1, just 4.6) and opened those same projects and they were fine. The bounces canceled out, everything sounded great.

I was kind of hoping someone would tell me that the problem was common knowledge and to just do this or that and everything will be back to normal. Alas, that is not the case. I do, however, see that everyone is working in 5.13 so upgrading is definitely the next thing I'm going to do. I keep you posted.

Thanks again,
Steve

[MIDI Life Crisis]

RE: phase cancellation - just a thought. Are they the same sample rates? BIt depth? File formats?

[EMRR]

I think you are in the land of mysterious and indecypherable code changes, unfortunately. I suspect there is no clear answer to be had. Find the best work-around you can, and report back. I never mix ITB so I can't address this with any knowledge, other than suggesting your fix will still be simpler than anything I ever get into with a remix. Consider it a different work method and state of mind, and move forward. You now have the opportunity to create a new organic mix, rather than a clone, if you like.

Have you considered de-installing on your original machine and reinstalling 4.6?

[kassonica]

I don't know what plugins your using BUT set them to always run in real time and see if it nulls then.

[tomeaton]

Has there been a pan law change since 4.61?

tom

[kassonica]

Has there been a pan law change since 4.61?

tom

I don't think so BUT it raises a good point. For it would makes sense if the mixes didn't null.

[bradycline]

Any chance your original has some bussing that didn't port over correctly in the bundles? I've had to rebuild a few of them when opening old projects.

[David Polich]

My question would now be - can you get a good mix on a project that was started in DP 5.x (not ported over from 4.6).

[Timeline]

I reported the same problem here a few years ago. Yea, here is what I think is going on.

First off, Sound will change dramatically when the CPU and throughput changes within the system. That is, a slower CPU tends to round quite a bit more. I actually like this. As for DP I think less error strictness is emboldened in the previous older versions of DP and therefor is more of a "let be" sound philosophy.

That said, the newer sound engine is supposed to be cleaner but I wonder myself. When I produced music on the old system software and hardware, I loved the results. I'm finding I have to work much harder at mixes now and not at all as happy with the sound although it's very precise.

I come from a Vacuum Tube, historic, dinosauric background and I heard the same thing switching from tube consoles to solid state. Yea, I got used to it and still made my music but I pine for the old days. I still have my Mac 9600 and plan to keep it for mastering and a few overdubs for the joy of OS9.

I think you will have to get used to it because I don't think todays software writers at MOTU really care much for vintage tone and simply go by the numbers.

When switching up to higher versions of DP I have had to almost completely remix to get close to the old. I really wonder what their doing with this software as I have heard sonic changes on almost every version and on big leaps, big mix differences. so... confirmed afaIc ......

Good luck.