Using another MAC for VIs

[richardein]

If you don't mind, I'll get back to the topic which is using another mac for VI's and the experimenting I'm doing with the built-in MIDI networking in Tiger. Here's the bottom line on a preliminary test:

I am sending, get this, MIDI over airport into DP 4.52 with very little if any latency. Pretty exciting, I must say.

Some details:

First of all, this is not being done in my composing studio, but cobbled together just for tests. That will have to wait until next week, until some more equipment arrives.

I'm using a Yamaha cbx-k2 MIDI controller hooked up via a fastlane usb to a headless dual 1.8 g5. I've configured and enabled a session in Network in Audio MIDI as per the instructions which you can access by opening audio MIDI, double clicking network and clicking on the question mark. I am using port 5004 (I can't remember why I chose that port but it's working).

I'm using an airport express for wireless networking.

As far as I can tell right now, you must keep audio MIDI open on both machines for the MIDI network to work.

Meanwhile, on a pb g4, I'm using chicken of the vnc as a vnc client to configure the headless dual g5. Also on the pb, I'm running digital performer. Since I don't have any synths at home right now, I simply set up the apple digital synth in DP4 and record enabled the track.

That's basically it. Playing notes on the yamaha keyboard on one computer will be transmitted via airport to the other computer and play the synth enabled in dp. Easily. No essential delay.

This is a first impression and there is much testing to do with distance, recording, and robustness. Not to mention making sure it works well going the other way. But so far, it works as one might hope it would. And it's quite amazing.

[Jaysplace101]

Thanks for the info Richard. Please keep us posted. I'm sorry to have gotten O.T. That was not my intent, and frankly, it didn't need to go down that path.

I'm loving this thread though. Any ideas and experience with running two machines (especially two macs) is very helpful. Keep it coming!

j

[richardein]

This article in sound on sond has some excellent information on Tiger's MIDI networking features and also the network audio au's.

[Dragonwind]

Originally posted by R.U. Spotless:
obviously, given the terms which you are using in your argument, you're not a programmer. Also, you're not a logic user, and you are not a MOTU coder/employee presumably, so you lack the experience, expertise, and first hand knowledge/access to postulate on this topic as if you actually knew something about it. Anyone used to the power of dp is going to be very unhappy being thrust into buggy and counter-intuitive logicworld, so this issue is a non-starter in any case. I use both apps, btw, tho' not by choice. And, also, i made the same jump as you and was stunned by the increase in power, so there's more proof that perceptions posted on forums are variable according to the users' expectations and experience.[/QB]

You know what? I am a Logic and DP user and you know what logic is no more buggy than DP and on my system, whis is dedicated to music and NOTHING ELSE, works beautifully. Logic is indeed far better on the CPU than DP but in a weird sort of way. If I take the exact same patch from Kontakt2 (VSl Legato flute) it runs (according to menu meters) at 35%. DP runs it at 60-75%. No other plugs used in this test and he buffer was set to 256 on both. With some plugins they are more equally matched, but usuall Logic wins out on overall overhead. Of course when it starts to get too high I can just click the NODE button and the track is processed on another mac on the network. DP NEEDS THIS FEATURE. If it had, or FX-TELEPORT for mac finally shipped than we would all enjoy limitless power with DP.
Chris

[richardein]

Agreed, DP needs NODE. Now.

[thanatopsis]

As for using VIs on other computers, I use my dual 2.5 G5 with a 2408mk3 (inputs set to 8 analog, 8 ADAT, and 8 ADAT or 2 S/PDIF) as my main computer.
I have a PC with a Frontier Design card sending 8-channel ADAT output to one on the 2408 ADAT ins. I don't use the PC much. It used to house my Korg Oasys card when I switched to OS X. The Korg card support died right before OS X. Very sad.
I now have my Korg Oasys card in my old dual 800 G4. It is MUCH happier there than in my PC. The Korg card is an audio card and also has built-in virtual instruments. It also has an ADAT out.
The 2408 is my main clock source and I sync the PC card and the Korg card via the 2408's two S/PDIF outs. Note: Syncing MORE THAN TWO total computers when using digital inputs and outputs can be a MAJOR PAIN without getting little clicks, pops, and glitches or VERY EXPENSIVE when use sync generators and splitter or distributors. I lucked out with my inexpensive setup.
It all works great. No clicks or pops. Decent latency, too. If I use CueMix to listen to the external computers, there is practically no latency. But I can even route them in to DP 4.6 to add extra effects live, and it is workable.

I also occasionally hook up my Powerbook with S/PDIF and an M-Audio interface, or just use the analog out. Tiger's network MIDI works great for that. No latency with Airport Extreme. All I have to do is plug in the audio cable and go.

the AUNetSend and AUNetReceive is fun to play with, but requires a fast network connection for decent latency.
I think my screenshots from the thing I wrote last month explaining my tests are still up, if anybody cares:
http://www.unicornation.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003078#000000

The Sound on Sound article describes the network MIDI stuff well.

[dtobocman]

Great thread. Thanks Richard and everyone else...

What about video? What kind of setups are we using to run quicktime movies on a 2nd computer? I was using MMC and a fastlane to run video on my iBook alongside my G4 for a monster filmscore (72 minutes of music in 3 weeks, 60 cues... no sleep). That was in OS9. Worked OK...

I haven't read the SOS article completely. Can we use network'd MIDI through Tiger to sync DP in both computers? Any better scenarios?

Thanks in advance... Great thread!

[bmiller360]

I use MidiOverLan to also slave Virtual VTR on a G4. It works great and responds to MMC also. Using DP on the "video" computer also works great. All you need is the timecode start and the movie window....that's it!
bruce
p.s: sorry to repeat myself, but Network MIDI in Tiger is not nearly ready yet. I tried it and did all I could to make it work until I just realized that I couldn't waste any more time with it. I'm sure it'll be great one day, but for now, MidiOverLan is well worth the small price you pay for what you get.

[richardein]

Bruce, I was able to get Network MIDI to work after a decent amount of fiddling but yes, it takes some cranium-scratching. However, once you do get it up and running it works. Period. Are there other issues besides the needlessly involved setup with Network MIDI? Put another way, where does MIDI Over Lan add value?

(I hope you understand I'm not challenging your expertise, I've just started to investigate this stuff out and I really want to know.)

Some other questions:

What about delay? Have you noticed distance delays or latency the longer the ethernet cable or the the larger the network?

Have you used Airport with it? If so, what was your experience?

[bmiller360]

richard............congratulations on getting Network to work. I'm impressed that you were able to get it right. I simply couldn't get it working to where I could trust it. A close, very computer savvy freind also struggled until he gave up. Since you got it going, maybe i'll try again and see what happens.
Bruce

[grimepoch]

I too got MIDI over ethernet working in Tiger, although I will say, it did take some time for me to get it working. The worst part, since the documentation is horrible, is that I had it in a loop, so the MIDI was going around in a circle between both hosts and actually killed the machine (locked up). So, now I seem to understand it better.

As I mentioned before, I think because I did Audio over Lan as well using wormhole, it was too much. I am going to try and use just MIDI again and see if the timing is better. Of course, the biggest problem is no PC driver, but I can deal with that for now, I have an extra 2x2 MIDI.

Another thing I did recently is buy the little USB SPDIF interface from Turtle Beach. Cost me locally $22 and I hook it out of my Mini to the G5 optical in. I then select multiple interfaces in DP and now I have a digital to digital connection that works EXCELLENT, and all for $22, I suggest checking it out!

Now, my last biggest hurdle, I want the mini to be headless as well, so, what is better, VNC or Apple Remote Desktop? I'd like to find a solution where I can leave the app up but, for lack of better terms, pause the output when I don't need to modify it or see it, then unpause when I want to make changes to Reaktor again.

Thoughts?

[bksavage]

Bruce - I've got a G4 400 sitting around and I'm running out of CPU on my G5 Dual 1.8. With BFD, Reason and Mach 5, which would you recommend for the G4?
Do I need a 2408 for the G4? This sounds so promising I'm ready to go out and buy MIDI over LAN.
Any thoughts?

Billy

DP 4.6/PT HD3/192 io/G5 dual 1.8 w/3 GB Ram
G4 dual 1.2/G4 400 agp/G3 466

[bmiller360]

I think you might try Machfive or reason on the G4. BFD is definately way too CPU intensive for a G4 400. Make sure that you have as much Ram as possible in the G4
You will need some sort of audio interface for each computer. Anything that will allow you to go OUT of the G4 audio interface, IN to the G5s audio interface.
The RME card I use is very good and allows 24 ADAT lightpipe channels to go through it, but you could really use anything that's solid....another 2408, 828, etcv, etc.
Good luck.

[richardein]

Vnc is more than acceptable in Tiger, but I'm sure Apple Remote Desktop is a very comfortable way to work and has more ways to tweeze the connection the way you like it than an open source VNC server. But VNC is free. So I suggest going to VersionTracker and downloading Chicken of the VNC to use as your VNC client (ie, to control a headless computer) and configure the Remote Desktop Options in the Sharing Preferences panel on the machine you'll be controlling. A little bit of fiddling will get it to work. (And it's quite enjoyable to wreak havoc from afar on an unsuspecting spouse's machine.)

Something to be aware of is that not all the standard keyboard shortcuts will work remotely (on VNC). Another thing is that if your headless machine goes to sleep, you may have to wake it up by pressing the On button halfway or so in order to get it to respond. Finally, iI believe that if you wish to copy files to and from the client machine, you will still have to initiate a sharing session over the network in the usual way, by signing on to the computer over the network - you can't just drag and drop from your controlling computer into vnc and have it land on the headless machine's desktop.

I agree with Bruce that MachFive makes sense for a spare G4 400. My experience is that you need all the ram you can get, so it would make sense to max out the G4. You could also have some fun with Reason, but I don't know how elaborate a system you need or whether the latest version (3.0) runs particularly well on a 400.