DP Upgrade questions

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:41 pm

Regarding bugs:

LEOPARD OS (10.5.2)
DP 5.13 (not any other)
Mac Pro (2.66 GHz Intel dual duo) with 5 GB RAM
This has been the most stable platform on which I have made music since the year 2001 in OS9 and DP 2.7x

I have had almost zero bugs. I had a couple of glitches, but Magic Dave at MOTU helped me get them under control. (not that they'll never happen again, of course) I think Tiger was far more buggy than Leopard, at least as far as DP is concerned.

Shooshie

WSVP · Post by **WSVP** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:33 pm

Here is my 2 cents worth...

The only investment I would make is the upgrade to DP 5.13 and an internal DVDR drive (the Pioneers have worked flawlessly for me for many years and the top of the line is $35). Using the latest version of Tiger and the latest drivers for the PCI-324 card (I am assuming you have the 324 card).

I also, in many ways agree with Shooshie about getting a new Mac. I went from a G4 Dual 867 to a G5 2.5 Dual Quad and it opened up lots of doors in terms of creative options. So if you can find the money, I would say go for it. However it will involve a substantial cost to upgrade, the 324 card will not work with a G5 or Intel mac so that would require a 424 at around $300. Add the computer, the extra ram, a dedicated audio drive and perhaps you might even need to change your monitor if it is ADC based. This is quite a big expense, based on your current usage requirements I am not sure it is justified.

I would normally agree with Shoosie's wise advice not upgrading the software with the current G4, BUT do to the fact that you have DP 4 (NOT DP 4.61) I think it is better to upgrade. If MOTU offered a lower priced upgrade to 4.61 this would also be a viable option. I always considered "DP 4.0" to be a piece of garbage. My feeling is that you should go with DP 4.61 or DP 5.13. I have heard many people say the DP 5.13 runs as good, or better than DP4 on their G4's.

As long as your requirements do not require Virtual Instruments or lots of plugins, the G4 800 you have should work fine, with your current track count requirements.

The good thing about upgrading DP and the DVDR is that they are things you can carry forward later if you decide to get a better Mac. These two items are NOT limited to the G4. In addition DP may give you a free upgrade to DP6 at this point, if you buy DP5 upgrade.

I do NOT recommend putting ANY money into the G4, Also I am NOT a fan of Processor upgrades, as I feel they are overpriced and often unstable. I have ALWAYS found that buying a used computer is a better all round value than a processor upgrade.

Here is a link to a good DVDR drive:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Pioneer/DVR115DBK/

Timeline · Post by **Timeline** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:48 pm

I think you are all missing the point Shooshie included. The NEWEST '08 macs are problematic. Not the previous '07 generation.

nk_e · Post by **nk_e** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 2:15 pm

Timeline wrote:I think you are all missing the point Shooshie included. The NEWEST '08 macs are problematic. Not the previous '07 generation.

Have to agree and add that I have not run into much on the bug front related to the 2007 Intel in particular...

WSVP wrote: I do NOT recommend putting ANY money into the G4, Also I am NOT a fan of Processor upgrades, as I feel they are overpriced and often unstable. I have ALWAYS found that buying a used computer is a better all round value than a processor upgrade.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that instability often related to over-clocked, overdriven chips, poor designs, etc? I remember alot of those stories when the upgrades first surfaced, but I thought that was largely addressed now. And I thought the Sonnets in particular had a good rep for being stable. Mine was FWIW (but then again it wasn't a "pushed within an inch of it's clock-life" upgrade...)

guitron45 · Post by **guitron45** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:27 pm

Chris Fitzgerald wrote: Anybody have an idea where this technodummy could find a decent one for a decent price?

Hi Chris, I am just in the process of this myself. Got my new [refurb] G5 2.0 last friday. 849.00

http://www.gainsaver.com/bNetStore/Temp ... 4&Param5=2

Well this link looks ridiculous. If it doesn't work go to gainsaver.com. And poke around. I chose this particular mac for the pci x slots which are compatible with my UAD 1 card. Late 2004 build. The 2.0 arrived with a few scratches in the case and had a few places inside that made me think a baggage handler from NYC got hold of it. It works just fine. But I'd let them swap out the dvd player for a superdrive. They strip these things and put in minimum everything and try to sell the original stuff back to you. Don't go for the new case they call that one BENT FEET, kind a scary I still refused that option. The feet are fine. I am buying my own ram owc.com has really good prices 2 gig is under a c note. Same with hard drives. It only holds two so plan on buying big ones if you go this route. On this list they say 4-6 gig for ram. At newegg.com I got a 500 gb Western Digital caviar drive 7200 rpm [the rpm speed in important. It's and SATA driver plenty fast I'm told. it was 94 bux I think These are not hard to install. The connectors only go in one way. And this is much cheaper than letting gainsaver install them. I got them to knock their shipping down to half price but I'm not that far from them. CA. to NM if you are on the east coast that probably won't work. I was worried when I saw the scratches on the case and there were a few angles inside the case that worried me but it seems to run fine. You will need a VGA to DVI adaptor unless your monitor is pretty new. All in all I'd do it again. I comes with a 30 free replacement guarantee. And you will learn something about your mac in the process. They are built pretty well.

Ron

Ron

WSVP · Post by **WSVP** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:34 pm

nk_e wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that instability often related to over-clocked, overdriven chips, poor designs, etc? I remember alot of those stories when the upgrades first surfaced, but I thought that was largely addressed now. And I thought the Sonnets in particular had a good rep for being stable. Mine was FWIW (but then again it wasn't a "pushed within an inch of it's clock-life" upgrade...)

While I have heard many people say that they have had success with Processor upgrades, I have heard even more horror stories. Also processor upgrade cards are NOT generally supported by most software and hardware developers.

Another thing to think about is the value, typical cards range from $250 - $500. Some require motherboard modifications. I have seen used G4 Dual 1.42 and Dual 1.25 Macs from $400-$600. In many cases they would have the extra ram and a DVD burner. On top of that you now have two computers.

In addition I truly believe that if the G4 processor could run reliably at better than 1.7 GHZ Apple would have made computers that carried them at the time. I am sure that there are some people who have had luck with 1.7 GHZ and up G4 upgrades but to me the risk is not worth the return.

Chris Fitzgerald · Post by **Chris Fitzgerald** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:26 pm

I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest...heh.

At any rate, if DP 5.13 is likely to be Tiger stable, and if (as several have said) it should run okay on my old machine (which it looks like I can spend $35 on and then do installs of software), then the DP upgrade sounds reasonable...especially if I could get a free upgrade to DP6 when it comes out. I didn't realize that the only thing I'd need for my old PCI-324 card would be a new driver. That makes it seem a lot more attractive. If I got a chance to play with some of the other newer features and found them worth upgrading the machine, then I'd have something definite to shoot for.

I guess I'm still in the place where I feel that learning the art of recording is like learning to play an instrument. At some point, the instrument will definitely hold you back. For a long while, though, what comes out of whatever you're playing is mostly limited by the skill of the player. I figure I've got decent enough mics with decent enough pres in a decent enough room. All I really need now is more experience (practice to get better. And I kind of like the idea of not getting too far behind in the software without having to spend too much $$$ at the moment. On top of all that, I've heard so many people trash DP 4.0 for so long that I can't help but wonder what I'm missing...

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:23 pm

I think you're being lulled into a false sense of security, but I'll let you figure that out on your own. We've done our best to explain that your G4 ain't gonna be a lotta fun.

But one thing I really do want to get clear to you is that your 324 card is going to cause problems. Most people (myself included) experienced kernel panics due to that thing. That was many OS versions ago, so maybe more recent versions of OSX are less incompatible with it than before. But the 324 card has been very problematic to most people since the coming of OSX.

Now, since you have to upgrade your PCI-324 card to a PCI-424, you need to know that there are three kinds. There's the plain PCI-424. That fits most older machines. A few G5 machines toward the end of the G5 run were fitted with PCI-x. If I'm not mistaken, MOTU made some of those available for upgrade. These are not cheap. Probably around $350 or so. But the PCI card for the Intel machines is a PCI-e. Let me emphasize that none of these cards can be fitted into the other kind of slot. PCI, PCIx and PCIe are completely different beasts, with PCIe apparently being the most advanced. So, should you buy a Mac with PCIx, then you'll have to upgrade to a PCIx-424 card, and then upgrade again to PCIe-424 when you finally get up-to-date with an Intel processor. It's something to consider. I haven't seen anyone explain that (or I may have missed it), so I thought you should know about this. It's one of those very frustrating hidden costs, and another reason why I recommend going Intel and NOT G5.

Shooshie

PS: PCI-e means PCI-Express.
PCI-x does not mean "express."

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:30 pm

And one more thing:

About trashing DP4:
When DP 4 came out, OSX was young. Several other entries into the OSX DAW world came out around the same 6 month period, and all of them had awful problems. This was the most significant jump in Mac history. The jump from G4/5 to Intel was nothing compared to this (even if it is more significant in other ways). Going from OS9 to OSX was like moving to another planet, with a little of the old planet in tow. It took years for everyone to start arriving on the same page, even if they were in the same book. Not a single DAW has been without major problems. So, most of the bitching about DP4 was really about the move to OSX and all the bugs that it brought.

The first stable version of DP was remarkably 4.11, followed by 4.12. After that, the next truly stable version (at least for me) was Dp 5.13 on an Intel in Leopard 10.5.2. That means the other versions had major problems for me. But I got plenty of music done, and I used the new features to great effect, and I've really enjoyed DP the whole way. Just because we're trashing it does not mean we don't love it or can't use it. Some would say they haven't been able to use it, but most of us have had plenty of success with it. Don't get the wrong idea. You're talking to people who expect a LOT out of this software, who push it a LOT harder than most users, and who are VERY critical.

That's all...

Shooshie

WSVP · Post by **WSVP** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:55 pm

Chris Fitzgerald wrote:I didn't realize that the only thing I'd need for my old PCI-324 card would be a new driver.

A few points to keep in mind...

.. Cuemix does not work with OSX via the PCI-324 card with any drivers.

.. As Shooshie pointed out, the 424 card is more stable than the 324 card, I second this, as I have found the PCIe-424 to be much better than the 324 was.

.. Only use the 324 audio with DP, using the 324 for the System output caused lots of kernel panics, particularly with the quicktime player.

.. At present the 324 card is not recognized in Leopard, and I doubt MOTU is likely to support Leopard with the 324 card.

Chris Fitzgerald · Post by **Chris Fitzgerald** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:43 am

Shooshie wrote:I think you're being lulled into a false sense of security, but I'll let you figure that out on your own. We've done our best to explain that your G4 ain't gonna be a lotta fun.

But one thing I really do want to get clear to you is that your 324 card is going to cause problems. Most people (myself included) experienced kernel panics due to that thing. That was many OS versions ago, so maybe more recent versions of OSX are less incompatible with it than before. But the 324 card has been very problematic to most people since the coming of OSX.

I'm a little confused...in Tiger, is my 324 card not likely to work the way it worked in Panther? The system was very stable even with DP 4.0, and I don't ever remember having any problem with the card. If I were to upgrade the computer, I would certainly go to a firewire interface.

Chris Fitzgerald · Post by **Chris Fitzgerald** » Tue May 06, 2008 9:43 am

After much research and good advice from all concerned, I'll be looking to upgrade the whole shebang. Money will definitely be an object, though, so...

I'd like to go with an iMac, since I have three older ones (two at home, one in the office) and they've all been great. How fast a machine should I try to get, keeping in mind that I'll need to save $$$ to also buy a new interface?

And speaking of a new interface, I like the looks of the Projectmix I/O because of the pres and control surface. Is there any reason why I should not go with a MOTU interface?

Thanks!

Tonio · Post by **Tonio** » Tue May 06, 2008 11:13 am

Chris,

FYI the PCI 324 does work under Tiger driver version 1.08. Just do not use the card for system audio e.g. QT, iTunes etc except for temporary purposes.

But since you are considering getting a new computer and interface, its a MOOT point.

I am in the same transitional boat also.

Once DP6 is out and my measly G4 dual 800 can't hack it, I suppose I will pony up .

Good luck

T

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Tue May 06, 2008 2:22 pm

Shooshie wrote:Regarding bugs:

LEOPARD OS (10.5.2)
DP 5.13 (not any other)
Mac Pro (2.66 GHz Intel dual duo) with 5 GB RAM
This has been the most stable platform on which I have made music since the year 2001 in OS9 and DP 2.7x

I have had almost zero bugs. I had a couple of glitches, but Magic Dave at MOTU helped me get them under control. (not that they'll never happen again, of course) I think Tiger was far more buggy than Leopard, at least as far as DP is concerned.

Shooshie

I agree, but I wonder about 10.5.2? I've heard some bad stuff re: other apps (can't remember which at the moment - maybe Photoshop CS 2?

Also, which version of Quicktime do you have. I'm at 7.4 and know there were problems with iTunes and video playback on some machines. I'm just finishing a project and can do some maintenance (after many months of NOT being able to upgrade.) Generally, I don't experience the glitches you hear about on MacFixIt.com, et al, so I'm not too worried. OTOH, another project is looming and I may have a few edits on the last project (see my Best Buy post... <sigh>).

TIA, my friend.

Thanks for any insights, Shoosh...

Chris Fitzgerald · Post by **Chris Fitzgerald** » Tue May 06, 2008 4:12 pm

I can't use Leopard yet because it's not Sibelius ready...although I don't neessarily need to run Sibelius on my recording computer.

MOTUnation.com

DP Upgrade questions

Re: DP Upgrade questions