Hello all, I am currently configuring a mobile recording rack of which I want at least 16 channel input.
I am building a server rack PC that is using a 100% fanless solution (only moving parts will be HDD) and from all specs it should be capable of mounting in one of the mobile audio racks with casters (4U at 19"). I am going to mod the case so a monitor will fit in the flip top lid. I basically want to plug into power at any location and be ready to record.
I am a little confused on what interfaces to purchase. I think 96Khz will be fine for recording and do not believe I need the HD192. I could easily do this with two of the 8pre's but here lies the problem (I think).
I will be recording live gigs and want the ability to capture the signal and then route an unprocessed signal to the main mixing board of the venue. Would the pre amps on the 8pre create problems after I send them to the mixing board that also has it's own pre amps. I notice the 8pre has 8 outputs but all are XLR and am curious if there are negative effects from this.
Should I be looking into some kind of splitter\patch bay so I can send signals seperately to the venue mixer and my recording rig instead of chaining from one to the other.
I assume not all venues will be as friendly to the idea of my jumping in the middle of their signal chain and I would like to do it in a way that is least obtrusive.
So really, do any of the Motu (with pre's) interfaces offer a send that would be unaffected by the pre-amps, more of a pass through type option. There is probably a simple well known solution out there, but I have never tried this before.
I need help!!! Recording live gigs
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Discussion related to installation, configuration and use of MOTU hardware such as MIDI interfaces, audio interfaces, etc. with Windows
Discussion related to installation, configuration and use of MOTU hardware such as MIDI interfaces, audio interfaces, etc. with Windows
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Pappy725
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
- Primary DAW OS: MacOS
- Location: Hill Country of Texas
I have the 828mkII and the 8Pre. The 8Pre only has Main Out L & R and opitcal outs. With the 828 you can route the 8 analog ins to the 8 analog outs and use the sends from the mic/guit pres on the front of the unit to pass 10 channels through. This is one of the ways I record live. My 8Pre is lightpiped into the 828 and shows up in CueMix as ADAT ins. Works well for me... 
Stephen
Stephen
MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Early 2013)
2.4 GHz Intel Core i7, 8GB RAM, OS High Sierra 10.13.2, DP8.07, 256GB SSD
828mkII, 8Pre, Alesis M1 Active Mk2, Ext. FW drives, Yamaha fretless bass, Kay upright bass, Wechter acoustic/electric, trombone, baritone and a proclivity for polka music. (With sufficient quantities of beer) and I play country music.
2.4 GHz Intel Core i7, 8GB RAM, OS High Sierra 10.13.2, DP8.07, 256GB SSD
828mkII, 8Pre, Alesis M1 Active Mk2, Ext. FW drives, Yamaha fretless bass, Kay upright bass, Wechter acoustic/electric, trombone, baritone and a proclivity for polka music. (With sufficient quantities of beer) and I play country music.
Thank you thank you,
This does indeed sound like it will work, but I'm going to need more channels. Very good info to know though. Personally if stealing the end of their non pre-amped XLR I would like to hand them a non pre-amped XLR right back so I may be looking at spending some $$$. There are many venues that I'm sure would say "get lost" if I handed them a modified signal from the microphone. I want to simply say "let's split it, here's yours and hears mine" and provide all cables for that process.
I was browsing online and found the xlr y-cables so I could simply split the signal at the stage snake, have 16 short cables for them to run from the splitter to the snake and then 16 longer ones to run to my interface(s). This would be messy but work.
Another cool thing I found was a rackmount version of this with up to three outputs per incoming signal. I have yet to hear back from them on prices though as it seems like a custom shop (yike$). Seems perfect for what I want to do but the price tag will be the major factor
http://www.wireworks.com/Microphone_Spl ... litter.htm
So when you do recording this way, are you the sound engineer also? Just curious if the sound guy has any problem with receiving an already pre-amped signal.
Once again, thanks for the reply Stephen. Although recording for years now I have never been in the "live" recording situation and every bit of info helps.
This does indeed sound like it will work, but I'm going to need more channels. Very good info to know though. Personally if stealing the end of their non pre-amped XLR I would like to hand them a non pre-amped XLR right back so I may be looking at spending some $$$. There are many venues that I'm sure would say "get lost" if I handed them a modified signal from the microphone. I want to simply say "let's split it, here's yours and hears mine" and provide all cables for that process.
I was browsing online and found the xlr y-cables so I could simply split the signal at the stage snake, have 16 short cables for them to run from the splitter to the snake and then 16 longer ones to run to my interface(s). This would be messy but work.
Another cool thing I found was a rackmount version of this with up to three outputs per incoming signal. I have yet to hear back from them on prices though as it seems like a custom shop (yike$). Seems perfect for what I want to do but the price tag will be the major factor
http://www.wireworks.com/Microphone_Spl ... litter.htm
So when you do recording this way, are you the sound engineer also? Just curious if the sound guy has any problem with receiving an already pre-amped signal.
Once again, thanks for the reply Stephen. Although recording for years now I have never been in the "live" recording situation and every bit of info helps.
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Pappy725
- Posts: 825
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:01 pm
- Primary DAW OS: MacOS
- Location: Hill Country of Texas
Yes, I'm usually in charge of the board. Or doing sound for someone or some festival. Then I run into the Motus and out to the board and I've taken direct outs from the board into the Motus, I've even used the inserts for a direct out. (Half inserted TRS plugs)
Lately the band I'm playing with is trying to downsize and we've gone wireless on vocals, guitars,horns and IEs. The keys and v-drums are line ins. No more monitor wedges. We're using the Motu's as our mixer and going out the main outs to EQ and power amps and speakers. Mostly small space gigs, but some dance halls.
We're still trying to get the EQ set up right, which changes every new place we go. I'd like to check out a Drive Rack which EQs the PA to the room and has some other nice features. I think we're still getting used to the IEs and lack of sound from the wedges. You know the gig. "It's too loud!" and all we had turned up is the monitors.
The rack mic splitter looks awesome.
Hope some of this helps or at least encourages you. I've always enjoyed live recordings more and think that's where the magic of music is. Onstage, performed live with warts and all. If you have fun doing it, the audience usually does too.
Of course, my polka band's motto is:
The more they drink, the better we sound!
Stephen
Lately the band I'm playing with is trying to downsize and we've gone wireless on vocals, guitars,horns and IEs. The keys and v-drums are line ins. No more monitor wedges. We're using the Motu's as our mixer and going out the main outs to EQ and power amps and speakers. Mostly small space gigs, but some dance halls.
We're still trying to get the EQ set up right, which changes every new place we go. I'd like to check out a Drive Rack which EQs the PA to the room and has some other nice features. I think we're still getting used to the IEs and lack of sound from the wedges. You know the gig. "It's too loud!" and all we had turned up is the monitors.
The rack mic splitter looks awesome.
Hope some of this helps or at least encourages you. I've always enjoyed live recordings more and think that's where the magic of music is. Onstage, performed live with warts and all. If you have fun doing it, the audience usually does too.
Of course, my polka band's motto is:
The more they drink, the better we sound!
Stephen
MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Early 2013)
2.4 GHz Intel Core i7, 8GB RAM, OS High Sierra 10.13.2, DP8.07, 256GB SSD
828mkII, 8Pre, Alesis M1 Active Mk2, Ext. FW drives, Yamaha fretless bass, Kay upright bass, Wechter acoustic/electric, trombone, baritone and a proclivity for polka music. (With sufficient quantities of beer) and I play country music.
2.4 GHz Intel Core i7, 8GB RAM, OS High Sierra 10.13.2, DP8.07, 256GB SSD
828mkII, 8Pre, Alesis M1 Active Mk2, Ext. FW drives, Yamaha fretless bass, Kay upright bass, Wechter acoustic/electric, trombone, baritone and a proclivity for polka music. (With sufficient quantities of beer) and I play country music.
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1nput0utput
- Posts: 1477
- Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:21 am
- Primary DAW OS: MacOS
- Location: USA
There's no way that any live sound engineer worth his weight in beans is going to allow you to take mic signals directly off the stage before they get to his console. What's more likely is that the engineer will give you a direct out from each channel of the console, which means the signal is already pre-amplified to line level, and what you do with that signal will in no way interfere with his FOH and stage monitor mixes.
My suggestion would be to use a 24I/O, which gives you 24 balanced 1/4" TRS inputs and outputs. The PCI-424 system is expandable, so you could always add up to three more 24I/Os later on (for a maximum total of 96 inputs and outputs).
My suggestion would be to use a 24I/O, which gives you 24 balanced 1/4" TRS inputs and outputs. The PCI-424 system is expandable, so you could always add up to three more 24I/Os later on (for a maximum total of 96 inputs and outputs).
I understand where you are coming from IO guy, but I am not talking running into a Motu and then sending him outputs or anything. I am talking about splitting the signal and don't understand why a sound engineer worth his weight would be against that. Can you tell me one negative effect it would have? I mean literally he would unplug the kick mic from the snake, plug the Y adapter on, then plug it back in. This would effect the signal 0% in my knowledge, if someone knows different please fill me in.
I would say you are correct that most engineers would not do this, but that is not because there is an adverse effect, they are just control freaks (which is fine). And honestly, if I was going to be recording a live gig I would be chatting with the engineer way before hand, warning him, and asking him how he would like to go about it. There is more than one way and I would like to be able to accomodate all of the ways without breaking my bank.
On the 24 IO that is a great suggestion for this one application. But I need more than a one trick pony which means I would also need pre-amps. I am not a rich man so purchasing a 24 IO and two 8pre's is not in my possible at this time.
I would say you are correct that most engineers would not do this, but that is not because there is an adverse effect, they are just control freaks (which is fine). And honestly, if I was going to be recording a live gig I would be chatting with the engineer way before hand, warning him, and asking him how he would like to go about it. There is more than one way and I would like to be able to accomodate all of the ways without breaking my bank.
On the 24 IO that is a great suggestion for this one application. But I need more than a one trick pony which means I would also need pre-amps. I am not a rich man so purchasing a 24 IO and two 8pre's is not in my possible at this time.
"I understand where you are coming from IO guy, but I am not talking running into a Motu and then sending him outputs or anything. I am talking about splitting the signal and don't understand why a sound engineer worth his weight would be against that. Can you tell me one negative effect it would have? I mean literally he would unplug the kick mic from the snake, plug the Y adapter on, then plug it back in. This would effect the signal 0% in my knowledge, if someone knows different please fill me in. "
Using Y adapters introduces many possibilities for problems and the associated finger pointing. This is not a proper split. A proper spilt is a transformer isolated one.
I have been doing this sort of thing for 15 years and I have never had a sound guy refuse to use my splitter (24 channels, jensen transformer isolated - my own build). And I also usually provide phantom as well (i.e, I take the direct split). However, I would not "insult" a sound guy by asking him to use a Y to provide me with a feed.
I also do live sound on occasion and if presented with a Y solution, I would have a long hard talk with the artist (or whoever was paying the bills) and explain the very real possibility that something (AC noise most likely) could ruin either or both their recording or the live sound. Sure, it might work fine, but if it didn't, it would be their money down the drain. If the "boss" still decided to gamble, well, I'm just a paid employee...
Using Y adapters introduces many possibilities for problems and the associated finger pointing. This is not a proper split. A proper spilt is a transformer isolated one.
I have been doing this sort of thing for 15 years and I have never had a sound guy refuse to use my splitter (24 channels, jensen transformer isolated - my own build). And I also usually provide phantom as well (i.e, I take the direct split). However, I would not "insult" a sound guy by asking him to use a Y to provide me with a feed.
I also do live sound on occasion and if presented with a Y solution, I would have a long hard talk with the artist (or whoever was paying the bills) and explain the very real possibility that something (AC noise most likely) could ruin either or both their recording or the live sound. Sure, it might work fine, but if it didn't, it would be their money down the drain. If the "boss" still decided to gamble, well, I'm just a paid employee...
http://www.wildplum.org Wildplum Recordings
a micro label, studio and remote recording service
a micro label, studio and remote recording service
Ok, I very much appreciate that input. I have no problem being told "don't do that!" but I would appreciate being told why. So the splitter box I listed up in the earlier post would be a perfect solution yes?wildplum wrote:"I understand where you are coming from IO guy, but I am not talking running into a Motu and then sending him outputs or anything. I am talking about splitting the signal and don't understand why a sound engineer worth his weight would be against that. Can you tell me one negative effect it would have? I mean literally he would unplug the kick mic from the snake, plug the Y adapter on, then plug it back in. This would effect the signal 0% in my knowledge, if someone knows different please fill me in. "
Using Y adapters introduces many possibilities for problems and the associated finger pointing. This is not a proper split. A proper spilt is a transformer isolated one.
I have been doing this sort of thing for 15 years and I have never had a sound guy refuse to use my splitter (24 channels, jensen transformer isolated - my own build). And I also usually provide phantom as well (i.e, I take the direct split). However, I would not "insult" a sound guy by asking him to use a Y to provide me with a feed.
I also do live sound on occasion and if presented with a Y solution, I would have a long hard talk with the artist (or whoever was paying the bills) and explain the very real possibility that something (AC noise most likely) could ruin either or both their recording or the live sound. Sure, it might work fine, but if it didn't, it would be their money down the drain. If the "boss" still decided to gamble, well, I'm just a paid employee...
http://www.wireworks.com/Microphone_Spl ... litter.htm
Ok, now not to start anything but...
I still don't understand some of these comments. It seems like all sound guys are really a bunch of pricks from some comments. When someone asks me a stupid computer question I personally don't laugh then punch them in the face. I see no reason why a good sound guy would not say, "sorry man, the Y adapter is not a proper split and could cause problems and possibly fry gear, I will just route you a signal using my sends" (pretty much the long hard talk you mentioned). They are sound techs, not vengefull gods.
Almost my last question, have either of you used a Y splitter and had problems with them? Or is this just all theoretical. I will not be going this route but am curious as to what they might actually be used for?
Last but not least, the wireracks was waaaayyyy too expensive. It also used Jensen transformers and seemed very nice. How much did it cost you to build yours and if the price was not insane, would you be willing to build another? This is a serious inquiry.
Yes, the Wireworks box is the sort of thing you need, Whirlwind also makes a great box. Yes they are very expensive- it is the cost of doing business (you want good sound or you just want to record? Just record, patch into the direct outs of the soundboard; cheap, easy and, well, you only get to pick two out of three- cheap, quick/easy, good).
There are less expensive boxes, but they sound it as well.
I built my splitter in 1995 for somewhere between $2000 and $2500 (memory fades). The cost of the transformers alone would be more than that today. It was a lot of work, but I did it for the love of audio not the money. Would have to charge as much as whirlwind to get me to do it for someone else. But Jensen has design docs on their site (I think) and you can learn to solder, maybe you could give it a shot.
Sound guys pricks, well maybe some are. Certainly I've met a few insecure dudes while touring, but you learn to work with them. But remember, their job is to produce good (as best they can) sound in the hall. If something goes wrong, it is the sound guy everyone blames (does not matter if it was the record guy's fault- if •••• starts coming out of the speakers, it is his head on the block). So it is understandable that they are picky about who and what they let have access to their signal chain. Unless they are sure that you really know what you are doing, why should they risk their jobs?
What are Ys used for? Emergencies mostly. A quick fix. Or, in a fully diagnosed system, something used day in and day out (not a one off recording situation) where you have had the time to work out any problems. I use them occasionally in the studio to split a signal out of the patch bay. And I carry a few in my remote kit, but they do not get used much, but occasionally••¦
What kind of problems? Frying gear is not likely (but possible). Most problems are related to noise being introduced into the system. Ground problems are a major concern. Remember, if you use a Y then your gear and the FOH gear- and monitors possibly as well- are all on the same line. Any problem in your stuff effects FOH- and vise versa (another reason for going isolated). And yes, i have seen gigs go to hell because of noise getting into a system because of a Y. But this isn't coloring book stuff. There is no formula that will cover every potential situation. Unpredictable things can- and do- happen. Your success as a remote engineer will depend in a significant way on how well- and quickly- you can deal with the unexpected.
All that being said, people record using Ys splits all the time. Most of the time, between friends (non-pro). Most of the time, no problem. But if you screw up a show because you used a Y, don't expect to be asked back.
What this all comes down to is another dirty word. How professional do you want to be? Just recording your friend's band at the local bar? Don't waste your money on a $8k splitter. Want to charge for your services? Then emulate the guys that do it right. It is only good business sense.
Two pieces of advice. You seem sincerely interested in remote recording. Nothing could serve you better at this point than to "intern" with a crew that knows what they are doing. Most remote guys are always on the look out for free labor that will do what they are told, keep the mouth shut, and the eyes open. In return for you free labor, if you pay attention, you'll get an education worth far more than your time and back pains.
Another good source of advice is the remote forum on http://www.gearslutz.com/board/
Good luck.
There are less expensive boxes, but they sound it as well.
I built my splitter in 1995 for somewhere between $2000 and $2500 (memory fades). The cost of the transformers alone would be more than that today. It was a lot of work, but I did it for the love of audio not the money. Would have to charge as much as whirlwind to get me to do it for someone else. But Jensen has design docs on their site (I think) and you can learn to solder, maybe you could give it a shot.
Sound guys pricks, well maybe some are. Certainly I've met a few insecure dudes while touring, but you learn to work with them. But remember, their job is to produce good (as best they can) sound in the hall. If something goes wrong, it is the sound guy everyone blames (does not matter if it was the record guy's fault- if •••• starts coming out of the speakers, it is his head on the block). So it is understandable that they are picky about who and what they let have access to their signal chain. Unless they are sure that you really know what you are doing, why should they risk their jobs?
What are Ys used for? Emergencies mostly. A quick fix. Or, in a fully diagnosed system, something used day in and day out (not a one off recording situation) where you have had the time to work out any problems. I use them occasionally in the studio to split a signal out of the patch bay. And I carry a few in my remote kit, but they do not get used much, but occasionally••¦
What kind of problems? Frying gear is not likely (but possible). Most problems are related to noise being introduced into the system. Ground problems are a major concern. Remember, if you use a Y then your gear and the FOH gear- and monitors possibly as well- are all on the same line. Any problem in your stuff effects FOH- and vise versa (another reason for going isolated). And yes, i have seen gigs go to hell because of noise getting into a system because of a Y. But this isn't coloring book stuff. There is no formula that will cover every potential situation. Unpredictable things can- and do- happen. Your success as a remote engineer will depend in a significant way on how well- and quickly- you can deal with the unexpected.
All that being said, people record using Ys splits all the time. Most of the time, between friends (non-pro). Most of the time, no problem. But if you screw up a show because you used a Y, don't expect to be asked back.
What this all comes down to is another dirty word. How professional do you want to be? Just recording your friend's band at the local bar? Don't waste your money on a $8k splitter. Want to charge for your services? Then emulate the guys that do it right. It is only good business sense.
Two pieces of advice. You seem sincerely interested in remote recording. Nothing could serve you better at this point than to "intern" with a crew that knows what they are doing. Most remote guys are always on the look out for free labor that will do what they are told, keep the mouth shut, and the eyes open. In return for you free labor, if you pay attention, you'll get an education worth far more than your time and back pains.
Another good source of advice is the remote forum on http://www.gearslutz.com/board/
Good luck.
http://www.wildplum.org Wildplum Recordings
a micro label, studio and remote recording service
a micro label, studio and remote recording service
Very cool WP,
I won't make huge comments as I pretty much agree with you for the most part. I understand the job of a sound man (my favorite one to work with in town is pretty rough personality-wise) and would never expect them to let me do anything, I was just saying I would not feel dumb or bad for asking.
Basically, I have been doing recordings and my own stuff and friends bands for about 7-8 years. Recently I'm getting very good responses from performers in town who wanted to work with\pay me. Because of this I was also offered a partnering\journeyman type arrangement with a studio in town. We will indeed be charging and will be going for quality. I plan on spending several thousand on the mobile rack including the PC and really want a at least 16 channel capability. I asked about the Y splitters because I simply did not know. And plus, I'm married with kids and 33 now. If I want to spend 3K on a mic splitter I damn well deserve it
I have done nothing but work in a studio where we had complete control of the signal chain. This is simply my first dive into the live recording gigs which there seems to be a market for and a slightly different approach.
The established studio needs no other gear as it is well stocked. The mobile solution will be kept at home for my personal uses and only brought out for live gigs.
I appreciate your time Plum, you have been very helpfull. Is there somewhere on this forum to post recordings\share music? I know I may have sounded like a complete noob, but I have simply never had access to alot of gear and have always had a straight signal chain. I know how to use my current equipment quite well and have become good at polishing a turd.
Oh, last thing, I can solder! Is it really that simple? I only do so when installing car stereos or the likes but from your comment, I may have to at least attempt it.
Oooohhh.... is a JT-MB-C for 52.00 sound about right? I only need one along with the other parts for a test run yes? Basically a homemade DI box?
I won't make huge comments as I pretty much agree with you for the most part. I understand the job of a sound man (my favorite one to work with in town is pretty rough personality-wise) and would never expect them to let me do anything, I was just saying I would not feel dumb or bad for asking.
Basically, I have been doing recordings and my own stuff and friends bands for about 7-8 years. Recently I'm getting very good responses from performers in town who wanted to work with\pay me. Because of this I was also offered a partnering\journeyman type arrangement with a studio in town. We will indeed be charging and will be going for quality. I plan on spending several thousand on the mobile rack including the PC and really want a at least 16 channel capability. I asked about the Y splitters because I simply did not know. And plus, I'm married with kids and 33 now. If I want to spend 3K on a mic splitter I damn well deserve it
I have done nothing but work in a studio where we had complete control of the signal chain. This is simply my first dive into the live recording gigs which there seems to be a market for and a slightly different approach.
The established studio needs no other gear as it is well stocked. The mobile solution will be kept at home for my personal uses and only brought out for live gigs.
I appreciate your time Plum, you have been very helpfull. Is there somewhere on this forum to post recordings\share music? I know I may have sounded like a complete noob, but I have simply never had access to alot of gear and have always had a straight signal chain. I know how to use my current equipment quite well and have become good at polishing a turd.
Oh, last thing, I can solder! Is it really that simple? I only do so when installing car stereos or the likes but from your comment, I may have to at least attempt it.
Oooohhh.... is a JT-MB-C for 52.00 sound about right? I only need one along with the other parts for a test run yes? Basically a homemade DI box?