Vocoders?

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:58 pm

I'm not sure whether the vocoders for DP are that bad, or if it's just that we don't have enough collective experience with them to get professional results and tell you how, but I can't help but be a little amused that you opted for the hardware choice after reading this thread.

Shoosh

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:10 am

Shooshie wrote:I'm not sure whether the vocoders for DP are that bad, or if it's just that we don't have enough collective experience with them to get professional results and tell you how, but I can't help but be a little amused that you opted for the hardware choice after reading this thread.

Shoosh

I know! And not an inexpensive one either!

Idiot or genius? I sure don't know the difference.

I did look into the options provided here. Each had their pluses and minuses. But, after talking to my sales rep, my producer and my client, I decided not to skimp. That the client's going to chip in for it helped nudge me.

I've wanted another twiddly-knob synth, and this job -- which is a big one for me -- is just begging for a lot of P-Funk style licks and riffs anyway. So, I grabbed the one I'd been thinking about for a while anyway. And it's vocoder is sweet.

Did I just type "vocoder is sweet?"

Anyway, I have to admit this is sometimes my M.O. I get a bunch of people together and hold this discussion:

Me: Little help. I need to get either A or B. Which should I get?

Group: Um... Get B.

Me: Right. I think I'm going to get C.

Hm. What does that say about me?

taggart · Post by **taggart** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:12 pm

chrispick wrote:And it looks like my client might help me cover some of the cost.

Rock on everyone.

Wow. I'd LOVE to have some clients like yours, C-man!

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:30 pm

I am worried about the Orange VOcoder being vst..Does that make it sluggish in DP? Is there some sort of convertors needed in your system or do you just install it and it places itself in the plugs VST folder without a hitch?...

David

wonder · Post by **wonder** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:19 pm

For what its worth, I was in the same boat and bought Orange Vocoder and NI's Vokator.

I'm using them both on a project now (vokator more because my sessions are in DP).

Vokator is fairly nice but to get those classic sounds, you have to do some tweaking ... as the presets aren't very good...quite annoying in fact.

The orange vocoder I haven't dug into but on the fly doing a test for about 5 minutes, it sounds pretty cool.

Ps, it took almost 4 weeks to activate NI's Vokator..it was a PAIN!

zed · Post by **zed** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:56 pm

I have Orange Vocoder with an iLok authorization which NEVER expires... the catch being that I have to use it in ProTools. I sure wish I could use it in DP, because I used to get some cool sounds out of that plugin.

But... despite the fact that I got some really neat effects (many of which I can now simulate using pluggo plugins), I never managed to get those organic kinds of vocoder sounds that I was hearing on Stevie Wonder records or on some of Peter Frampton's stuff. So it's possible that a hardware vocoder IS the way to go if you are looking to do that. I would like to play with one some day, so that I could know for sure.

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:23 pm

zed wrote:But... despite the fact that I got some really neat effects (many of which I can now simulate using pluggo plugins), I never managed to get those organic kinds of vocoder sounds that I was hearing on Stevie Wonder records or on some of Peter Frampton's stuff. So it's possible that a hardware vocoder IS the way to go if you are looking to do that. I would like to play with one some day, so that I could know for sure.

FYI: If it's the "Do You Feel" Frampton track you're referencing, that's a guitar talk box, not a synth vocoder. You can purchase a pedal to help you there.

Yeah, the Radias allows me to do the traditional "I Wanna Be Your Man" style of funk-riff vocoding, so it's fitting the bill right now.

chrispick · Post by **chrispick** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:25 pm

wonder wrote:Ps, it took almost 4 weeks to activate NI's Vokator..it was a PAIN!

Yeah, if you do a thread search, you'll find I had a really hard time with NI's current registration process too. Got it fixed, but also took weeks, numerous passwords and, eventually, them setting me up a new account.

zed · Post by **zed** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:00 am

chrispick wrote:If it's the "Do You Feel" Frampton track you're referencing, that's a guitar talk box, not a synth vocoder.

I put on "Do You Feel" from the Frampton Comes Alive album and listened for what I believed to be a vocoder sound... and about 5 or 6 minutes in, it finally came... the exact sound I was referring to, and I believe the same sound that I love so much from those 1970s Stevie Wonder albums.

So that's a talk box? Damn. No wonder I could never recreate that effect with the Orange Vocoder. I can't believe that after all this time I hadn't figured that out.

I remember being told by a rep at my local music store that I was looking for a vocoder... but alas I was mislead.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, chrispick.

chrispick wrote:You can purchase a pedal to help you there.

I wanna get me one of those asap... most probably the Rocktron Banshee.

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:18 am

Yep, the talk box is a different animal. I think there was a recent discussion; maybe in the general Recording forum. Or maybe it was at Music Player's Keyboard Corner. The talk box is typically modulated by guitar vs. keyboard, and can be mildly hazardous to play (potential electrocution). A recent reissue addresses these concerns, but at any rate it is slightly more difficult to emulate in a software plug-in than a vocoder.

It's funny you should mention the Frampton tune, because I visited a record store for the first time in months today to trade a few items, and that was the exact song they were playing! I immediately thought "talk box", and was quite surprised to find this song being discussed here later tonight. Jeff Beck also used a talk box for his famous jazz fusion cover of The Beatles' "She's a Woman". It was also quite popular with George Clinton's entourage.

zed · Post by **zed** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:41 pm

mhschmieder wrote:It's funny you should mention the Frampton tune, because I visited a record store for the first time in months today to trade a few items, and that was the exact song they were playing! I immediately thought "talk box", and was quite surprised to find this song being discussed here later tonight.

Kind of interesting how things sometimes come together like that, huh? A coincidence, maybe, but it often feels more like it was meant to be.

Perhaps you're supposed to look into getting one of these babies too:
http://www.rocktron.com/frameset1.html (and then go to the products section --> banshee talk box).

mhschmieder · Post by **mhschmieder** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:26 am

That link doesn't work for me, but I know what you're referring to, as I researched talk box options last year.

Basically, there are two fairly recent hardware issues/reissues of talk boxes, and they differ slightly in their approach.

The Rocktron Banshee is the safest, but is not as authentic as the Heil reissue of their classic model. Rocktron's device implements a built-in compressor, which is usually recommended at a 4:1 setting (similar to pre-processing a mic going into a vocoder).

The talk box can be more expressive than a vocoder, but arguably requires greater coordination as a guitar is used in place of a keyboard to produce the actual audio tones (the mouth/voice modulates via formants) -- although the mod and pitch wheels can be used in conjunction with a vocoder to give it more expression.

Famous examples of the talk box in action (some of them already mentioned) include: Rufus ("Tell Me Something"); Peter Frampton Live; Jeff Beck ("She's a Woman"); Aerosmith ("Sweet Emotion").

Both the Heil and Rocktron units sell for approximately $140 to $150. My recollection is that water is involved when using the tube of the Heil unit, creating a potential electrocution hazard (or maybe the hazard is simply a result of moisture from the mouth itself).

zed · Post by **zed** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:12 pm

mhschmieder wrote:The Rocktron Banshee is the safest, but is not as authentic as the Heil reissue of their classic model.

Thanks for the tip. It would be nice to enjoy the ease of the Rocktron Banshee (without any external amp requirements, etc.) but if it doesn't deliver as good a sound as the Heil reissue, then I would prefer to get the other. I will see if I can get my music store to order both.

mhschmieder wrote:Famous examples of the talk box in action...

I know I keep mentioning it, but let's not forget Stevie Wonder. He sprinkled the talk box sound throughout his 1970s recordings... including the very first song on his new era 1972 album: Music of My Mind. There are also some great examples on Songs in the Key of Life and the greatly underrated Secret Life of Plants. His talk box usage is usually applied as an effect on his voice.

For anyone interested, check out that first song here. You can really hear the talk box towards the end of the clip:
http://www.amazon.com/Music-My-Mind-Ste ... B00004S367
A higher resolution version of this Love Having You Around clip is available at iTunes Store.

toodamnhip · Post by **toodamnhip** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:50 pm

kassonica wrote:Orange Vocoder a beauty. software as well http://products.prosoniq.com/cgi-bin/re ... &refno=31/

also the one is reason is harder to setup but quite useable

If I buy the VST ORange VOcoder, do I need and sepcial VST wrapper for it to run with DP 5.12 in a Power Mac G5 2.5?

Or, will it come with it;s own vst translation so it will work on it;s own?

zed · Post by **zed** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:32 pm

toodamnhip wrote:If I buy the VST ORange VOcoder, do I need and sepcial VST wrapper for it to run with DP 5.12 in a Power Mac G5 2.5?

Or, will it come with it;s own vst translation so it will work on it;s own?

I may be wrong, but I think you will need a VST wrapper for any plugin that does not come with an AU version. I don't believe that Orange Vocoder has an AU version, especially now that it is owned by Digidesign. I'd love to get my copy of the plugin active in DP, but I'm not much interested in fiddling around with VST wrappers.