An Essay on Doubles Troubles and Forum Decorum

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:09 pm

huh huh huh... you said L8. huh huh huh L8...

BUNGHOLIO!

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:31 pm

MIDI Life Crisis wrote:huh huh huh... you said L8. huh huh huh L8...

BUNGHOLIO!

Do you realize that B&B first ran in spring of 1993?

huh-huh-huh. We're old.

Well, one thing that helps keeps discussions from getting too serious is humor!

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:35 pm

I think basically most of us will agree that the two issues that are really important to us are STABILITY and PERFORMANCE.

I'm fortunate that what I'm doing is relatively simple stuff compared to you orchestral dudes (when have you ever been referred to as that?

) so I haven't really hit any performance snags that bug me yet.

That said that I have a feeling that if MOTU did NOTHING ELSE but figre out away to match or get to 90% of Logic's processor efficiency we'd all be happier than pigs in... well... you know.

Lastly, I think MOTU ought to get on top of this "Node" thing. Frankly, I'd wager that there are enough people who might grudingly drop the dough for another Mac and hook them up together, as a band aid (albeit expensive one) for the processor efficiency issue.

One other random thought I had is what's stopping MOTU from coming up with some sort of external processing unit like Waves has done or the Liquid Mix and coding DP so that AU's could use a MOTU external processing unit? Or perhaps maybe some flavor of new "424" card that had an additional connector that would allow you to connect DSP?

I realize basically this is going in the opposite direction from native.

Oh... YET ANOTHER thought. Is it kind of a bummer to anybody else when you consider the amount of hardware development R&D that must have gone into the V3HD gizmo that we can't even get a MOTU-designed DP specific control surface that was rumored years ago? If DP users are settling for imperfect 3rd party hardware solutions, why doesn't MOTU get the brain trust at S&S to crank out some slick hardware to compliment DP? "Now I ask you?"

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:37 pm

Frodo wrote:
MIDI Life Crisis wrote:huh huh huh... you said L8. huh huh huh L8...

BUNGHOLIO!
Do you realize that B&B first ran in spring of 1993?

huh-huh-huh. We're old.

Well, one thing that helps keeps discussions from getting too serious is humor!

I still have a bunch of episodes on video... lol... VHS..

arth · Post by **arth** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:16 pm

James Steele wrote:I think basically most of us will agree that the two issues that are really important to us are STABILITY and PERFORMANCE.

You know, James, "stability" in the keyboard world has traditionally been that the steaming pile of circuits does the same weird thing every time.

That, we can live with. It's when you can't predict it anymore that it becomes classified as "temperamental", i.e. unstable and something you want to replace ASAFP.

In other words, that my UltraLite goes industrial on me every time there's a sample rate change, I can live with and work around, even though it should be fixable and fixed by now. But that some people experience rice crispies every now and then, with no way to predict when it's going to happen, that's a bigger problem, cause it affects stability. Would I have used an UltraLite for recording anything if there was a 20% chance of it ruining a long recording? Heck, no. Luckily, that doesn't happen for me (knock on wood), but it apparently happens for some other people.

I really wish that MOTU would work with those who have stability problems to identify, isolate, document and fix the exact problems, instead of giving the runaround that may or may not help, but does nothing to identify what was wrong.

And, MOTU, please start documenting what software and firmware upgrades do. A changelog, in other words. Other companies manage to provide them, and they're of GREAT help to many people. If I don't know whether the sample rate change bug is fixed in the latest UltraLite firmware, why should I want to update? If it isn't fixed, I may be risking other problems, and taking risks just isn't worth it.
Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:21 am

James Steele wrote:I think basically most of us will agree that the two issues that are really important to us are STABILITY and PERFORMANCE.

It's been said a millions times, but I've to get tired of seeng it in print.

James Steele wrote: I'm fortunate that what I'm doing is relatively simple stuff compared to you orchestral dudes (when have you ever been referred to as that? ) so I haven't really hit any performance snags that bug me yet.

That's the thing: I've not been doing anything outlandish in orchestra world because I've not been able to. In fact, most of the issues I've pinpointed are shared by enough other users with only one stereo audio track, no effects, no CC data, and 3-4 VI instances are involved.

James Steele wrote: That said that I have a feeling that if MOTU did NOTHING ELSE but figre out away to match or get to 90% of Logic's processor efficiency we'd all be happier than pigs in... well... you know.

On another forum, someone pointed out that as computers get more powerful, developers get first call on the CPU and memory to run new versions of their apps-- and the user gets what's left over. How Apple got around this will be somewhat of a grail, imho. But in the meantime I'm taking my hairy-hoofed hobbit hiney back to 5.11 where I belong. (I regress even as I digress.)

James Steele wrote: One other random thought I had is what's stopping MOTU from coming up with some sort of external processing unit like Waves has done or the Liquid Mix and coding DP so that AU's could use a MOTU external processing unit? Or perhaps maybe some flavor of new "424" card that had an additional connector that would allow you to connect DSP?

Perhaps there needs to be some plugins that warrant an outboard unit. Neve and others have partnered with UAD, TC has got its own thing going, Dunende covers SSL. Liquid has got Focusrite. What do we have left: a $900 MasterWorks box with such bonuses as Quan Jr and Buffy? No, there first needs to be some worthy plugins.

James Steele wrote: I realize basically this is going in the opposite direction from native.

Not really. Native is one thing. Having everything run completely off your system drive is another thing entirely.

James Steele wrote: Oh... YET ANOTHER thought. Is it kind of a bummer to anybody else when you consider the amount of hardware development R&D that must have gone into the V3HD gizmo that we can't even get a MOTU-designed DP specific control surface that was rumored years ago? If DP users are settling for imperfect 3rd party hardware solutions, why doesn't MOTU get the brain trust at S&S to crank out some slick hardware to compliment DP? "Now I ask you?"

It really does make me wonder about this V3HD thing. For all intents and purposes, it's been a big secret. I've asked so many people if they'd seen or heard of the V3HD and 9 out of 10 say they have not.

At least there's FINALLY a blurb on motu.com about it-- a month after its release.

And what's up with PCIe support? Only one unit with 192k capability with no ADAT or TDIF?

When you compare the amount of chips on a Digidesign HD card to the one or two on a PCIe-424, it makes you wonder if there's not some happy medium or at least some room for a higher-end card option (like a 424 Pro, for lack of a better term). It currently doesn't take much to get the MAS overload warning. If they can charge $1600 for an HD192 and $3k for a V3HD, they can figure out something to make a stealthier PCIe card.

But I'm convinced that there is some sort of card hurdle-- either the price of development or a stubbon belief that what's there is good enough.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:22 am

Sorry-- strange double post for some reason-- no delete option available.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:38 am

iPhoto ------------- Photoshop

Sibelius ------------ Finale

Tom Cruise ---------- Marlon Brando

Toyota Hybrid ----- 63 Thunderbird

PC ------------------- Apple

Logic ---------------- Digital Performer

I know what's right for me.

zaster · Post by **zaster** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:08 am

MIDI Life Crisis wrote: I was also wondering about L8 and beat detection.

No need to wonder: there is none.

YouTube · Post by **James Steele** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:15 am

Frodo wrote:
James Steele wrote: One other random thought I had is what's stopping MOTU from coming up with some sort of external processing unit like Waves has done or the Liquid Mix and coding DP so that AU's could use a MOTU external processing unit? Or perhaps maybe some flavor of new "424" card that had an additional connector that would allow you to connect DSP?
Perhaps there needs to be some plugins that warrant an outboard unit. Neve and others have partnered with UAD, TC has got its own thing going, Dunende covers SSL. Liquid has got Focusrite. What do we have left: a $900 MasterWorks box with such bonuses as Quan Jr and Buffy? No, there first needs to be some worthy plugins.

No... what I was trying to say (not so well) was that because they could make the hardware and code DP, might it be possible to engineer DP and a MOTU external processing unit in such a way that any 3rd party AU plug could benefit from the external DSP? I don't know... just throwing it out there?

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:25 am

James Steele wrote:
Frodo wrote:
James Steele wrote: One other random thought I had is what's stopping MOTU from coming up with some sort of external processing unit like Waves has done or the Liquid Mix and coding DP so that AU's could use a MOTU external processing unit? Or perhaps maybe some flavor of new "424" card that had an additional connector that would allow you to connect DSP?
Perhaps there needs to be some plugins that warrant an outboard unit. Neve and others have partnered with UAD, TC has got its own thing going, Dunende covers SSL. Liquid has got Focusrite. What do we have left: a $900 MasterWorks box with such bonuses as Quan Jr and Buffy? No, there first needs to be some worthy plugins.
No... what I was trying to say (not so well) was that because they could make the hardware and code DP, might it be possible to engineer DP and a MOTU external processing unit in such a way that any 3rd party AU plug could benefit from the external DSP? I don't know... just throwing it out there?

Ah, I see what you're saying.

1. I love the idea of customization and optimization in conjunction with tapping into any extra processing... sort of like a Muse box with a MAS core. Great thought. Considering the way they flung V3HD out there with no regard to their customer base, I'd say they've already got such a box on the market. It doesn't bear the unicorn emblem or even the name MOTU. Released two years ago!! LOL!!

2. I can't help but to wonder if it's sort of like someone who refuses to do laundry in favor of just buying new clothes. If they'd just clean up what‘s there it will be fine, I think.

MIDI Life Crisis · Post by **MIDI Life Crisis** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:35 am

Frodo wrote:
2. I can't help but to wonder if it's sort of like someone who refuses to do laundry in favor of just buying new clothes. If they'd just clean up what‘s there it will be fine, I think.

Given the state of quality control and sweatshop conditions, even buying new cloths means you have to have them laundered before placing them on your skin. The analogy here is to have someone ELSE buy software (including upgrades) and hardware BEFORE you buy it and let THEM launder out the bugs.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:36 am

[quote="PeterMcCStrat"]Shoosie-

It seems this is directed squarely at me, so I••™ll reply here.

It is a changing world,••¦. to the point that words such as
••œGod••

JadeLatrell · Post by **JadeLatrell** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:03 am

James Steele wrote:I think basically most of us will agree that the two issues that are really important to us are STABILITY and PERFORMANCE.

This is exactly right. To this, I would add CREATIVITY. I have to hand it to Logic in that, to me, it feels very creative. I can very quickly and easily get from open ap, to record. More so than in DP. That said, when it comes to the flexibility of tweaking and fine tuning, DP still has the edge in my book.

All this discussion is ultimately good for everyone. It all comes down to, what application am I most comfortable with. When I went to buy a car, I thought a truck would be the most practical, but bottom line, I like to drive fast so I went with the less pratical but that which made me "feel" cooler. But I KNEW it was a trade off.

I think the same will happen here. There will be people that always update DP, I will be one of them. And there will be people who switch. Thats fine too. There is room for both.

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:53 am

Shooshie wrote:...By no means do I expect anyone to listen to what I have to say. But if a few people think twice and choose to spare the flames, then I think it was worth it to say what I had on my mind.
Shooshie

That's the ticket, right there.