Problem using "Apply soundbite tempo to sequence"

[toodamnhip]

It's seems that after all is said and done, after examining beats of a stereo file that I want to have DP sync with, after doing all the steps and telling DP to apply soundbite tempo to sequence, after all of that, I often get the problem where for about 1/2 the song, DP is clicking along perfect ly in sync with the analysed audio, and then, it goes "batty" and gets off tempo with the source audio.

SOmetime re-doing the tempo analysis has helped, sometimes creating a new section from the bad point onward and then re-analysing THAT section onward has helped...but it is always hit and miss.

The thing that gets me is how it is so common for things on various audio imports, to go out of sync around bar 70 or about 1/2 way through the song etc.

Has anyone found a truly solid fix for what I am encountering?

It's almost like I need to be able to do a punch style "tempo re-analysis" from the out of sync section on but it is always a "on my- what am I gonna try this time" thing..

Sometimes I just end up tap tempoing from the bad point on.

But is seems ot be a continual problem and I don;t understand why DP gets confused approx 1/2 through tempo analysed material.

I am looking for a relaible way to re analyse previously analysed material from the middle of the song onward and have DP fix it's previously unsucccessful analysis without screwing up the 1 st half analysis that WAS successful

[simonr]

I don't know if what you describe is a bug or not, but the type of stereo file that you are analysing makes a difference. In the manual (p624 in the DP5 manual) it'll tell you that beat analysis ( which it has to do before it can fathom the tempo) is not very successful on mixed audio files. So if your file is a whole mix of instruments it will be flaky.

I have to do this a fair bit. I import finalised mixes and have to sync MIDI events with it to control fountain functions.

I have never got beat analysis to work effectively. And I find it just too much hard work going through and editing the beats.

I always use 'adjust beats' to set the tempo. I can see what is happening and can control it more easily.

[toodamnhip]

I don't know if what you describe is a bug or not, but the type of stereo file that you are analysing makes a difference. In the manual (p624 in the DP5 manual) it'll tell you that beat analysis ( which it has to do before it can fathom the tempo) is not very successful on mixed audio files. So if your file is a whole mix of instruments it will be flaky.

I have to do this a fair bit. I import finalised mixes and have to sync MIDI events with it to control fountain functions.

I have never got beat analysis to work effectively. And I find it just too much hard work going through and editing the beats.

I always use 'adjust beats' to set the tempo. I can see what is happening and can control it more easily.

Well..I dont understand why it get the 1st 1/2 or 3/4 of a tune right and then goes batty in the middle..and from that point on, it stays messed up.
Usually, I see no difference in the audio complexity where DP gets off sync..it's another chorus or verse, no different from the previous chorus that DP DID get right...I could understand this problem if I saw the beat get all weird and complex in a spot and saw DP get confused, but this is NOT usually the case. We're talking an R&B track for example...and on chorus 3 ( for example), DP just loses it...when it got the same EXACT chorus 2 correctly.

This is why it's intriguing..

I swear beat analisys has a bug man...but I am still left witht he question of how to do a beat analisys repair on the last 1/2 - 1/3 of the tune.

[zaster]

I wonder if a workaround like this would solve your problem. Copy the second half of the soundbite (from measue 70 on, say) to a new sequence, generate the tempo map, then copy it to the conducter track at the appropriate measure (70 in this case). Wouldn't take more than an additional few secs, right?

[toodamnhip]

I wonder if a workaround like this would solve your problem. Copy the second half of the soundbite (from measue 70 on, say) to a new sequence, generate the tempo map, then copy it to the conducter track at the appropriate measure (70 in this case). Wouldn't take more than an additional few secs, right?

At first what you said seemed to make no difference..however, if indeed DP has a problem wherein the first 70 bars or so tend to be more accuarate than the last, well then, that might help so I might try that some time...its worth a shot right?

This doesnt even have to be in a new sequence either..I can just move bar 70 onward to bar one in the same sequence , but on a different track, creat a new take in the conductor track, let DP does it's analisys thing, and then paste all that to the 2, d have of track one and the original conductor track.

[zaster]

I wonder if a workaround like this would solve your problem. Copy the second half of the soundbite (from measue 70 on, say) to a new sequence, generate the tempo map, then copy it to the conducter track at the appropriate measure (70 in this case). Wouldn't take more than an additional few secs, right?

At first what you said seemed to make no difference..however, if indeed DP has a problem wherein the first 70 bars or so tend to be more accuarate than the last, well then, that might help so I might try that some time...its worth a shot right?

This doesnt even have to be in a new sequence either..I can just move bar 70 onward to bar one in the same sequence , but on a different track, creat a new take in the conductor track, let DP does it's analisys thing, and then paste all that to the 2, d have of track one and the original conductor track.

Let us know if it works! That idea was just off the top of my head- I haven't ever really used the beats functionality (was hoping to get another thread going about it, but it seems to have unraveled as threads have a habit of doing here! )

[Frodo]

Dave, fwiw:

In another thread on another topic (can't recall at the moment), Shooshie mentioned that things like Tap Tempo and Soundbite/Sequence Tempo may not work as well as they once did. Last week he filed yet another report with MOTU on the matter, but he also mentioned that it was not a new problem. It only seems to be increasingly common in later versions of DP.

I can confirm some the symptoms, but it's also true that the symptoms can vary with the same proceedures using the same soundbite and the same settings with successive attempts.

The strangest thing of all is that sometimes it actually works as intended.

[toodamnhip]

Dave, fwiw:

In another thread on another topic (can't recall at the moment), Shooshie mentioned that things like Tap Tempo and Soundbite/Sequence Tempo may not work as well as they once did. Last week he filed yet another report with MOTU on the matter, but he also mentioned that it was not a new problem. It only seems to be increasingly common in later versions of DP.

I can confirm some the symptoms, but it's also true that the symptoms can vary with the same proceedures using the same soundbite and the same settings with successive attempts.

The strangest thing of all is that sometimes it actually works as intended.

Yeah..I forgot to mention that solution, I do that too..just re-analyse and see if it does it better "this time"..lol

[Frodo]

Yeah-- and the degree of success can hinge largely on how many attempts you are willing to try.

One thing I've not attempted for the purpose of testing is to open the soundbite in a new project without any plugins or VIs loaded to see if it works any better-- in case some plugin might otherwise in some unknown remote way intefere with the process. But even describing this sounds like a stretch and shouldn't be necessary. Having tried everything else, anything at this point is a wild stab in the dark.

[toodamnhip]

Yeah-- and the degree of success can hinge largely on how many attempts you are willing to try.

One thing I've not attempted for the purpose of testing is to open the soundbite in a new project without any plugins or VIs loaded to see if it works any better-- in case some plugin might otherwise in some unknown remote way intefere with the process. But even describing this sounds like a stretch and shouldn't be necessary. Having tried everything else, anything at this point is a wild stab in the dark.

Where's Magic Dave?...I bet he has some great advice

[OldTimey]

Are you lining up the first downbeat of the song to a barline before having dp map the tempo? I've found that that helps in certain situations.

[toodamnhip]

Are you lining up the first downbeat of the song to a barline before having dp map the tempo? I've found that that helps in certain situations.

Yes

[toodamnhip]

Yes

[magicd]

Yeah-- and the degree of success can hinge largely on how many attempts you are willing to try.

One thing I've not attempted for the purpose of testing is to open the soundbite in a new project without any plugins or VIs loaded to see if it works any better-- in case some plugin might otherwise in some unknown remote way intefere with the process. But even describing this sounds like a stretch and shouldn't be necessary. Having tried everything else, anything at this point is a wild stab in the dark.

Where's Magic Dave?...I bet he has some great advice

This subject has been discussed here before. I've seen exactly the symptom you are describing. Typically what happens is that something went wrong in the analysis of the audio and when you apply a tempo change, you get radical speed up or down at the point of the error.

The way I've found to solve the problem is this:

If you do a tempo change and notice this problem on playback, stop, make note of the first time you hear the problem and which track. Undo the overal tempo change.

Cut the audio before the tempo screwup happened. Make another cut a few bars downstream from that. Merge the new section. This causes DP to create a new soundfile describing what was the problem region. The new soundfile won't have the tempo analysis problem.

Now do the tempo change to the track. You won't have the tempo mistake at that point.

Whenever you run into a section of audio that doesn't change tempo correctly, section that bit of audio out and Merge the new soundbite. I've found that solves the problem every time.

Magic Dave

[toodamnhip]

Yeah-- and the degree of success can hinge largely on how many attempts you are willing to try.

One thing I've not attempted for the purpose of testing is to open the soundbite in a new project without any plugins or VIs loaded to see if it works any better-- in case some plugin might otherwise in some unknown remote way intefere with the process. But even describing this sounds like a stretch and shouldn't be necessary. Having tried everything else, anything at this point is a wild stab in the dark.

Where's Magic Dave?...I bet he has some great advice

This subject has been discussed here before. I've seen exactly the symptom you are describing. Typically what happens is that something went wrong in the analysis of the audio and when you apply a tempo change, you get radical speed up or down at the point of the error.

The way I've found to solve the problem is this:

If you do a tempo change and notice this problem on playback, stop, make note of the first time you hear the problem and which track. Undo the overal tempo change.

Cut the audio before the tempo screwup happened. Make another cut a few bars downstream from that. Merge the new section. This causes DP to create a new soundfile describing what was the problem region. The new soundfile won't have the tempo analysis problem.

Now do the tempo change to the track. You won't have the tempo mistake at that point.

Whenever you run into a section of audio that doesn't change tempo correctly, section that bit of audio out and Merge the new soundbite. I've found that solves the problem every time.

Magic Dave

Hey Dave, you're just the guy I wanted to hear from..and it is good to hear you too have noticed this issue. Before I go any further I want to say that I think there is a bit of a bug in DP in this area as it almost always seems to happen after 60-70 bars or so and, without "counting" bars, the main point is that it appears possible there is a tendency for the beat/tempo analysis to get "tired" or confused after a minute and a half of analysis....strange as that sounds..I am hoping you'll let the programmers know about this hypothesis if you see fit..

OK..now, as to what you wrote, I have indeed tried to section off pieces of audio when there has been a mis-read but you know, I am not even sure it IS a mis-read as when I look at the audio in the bad section, the beats are all CORRECT..so, I guess it is a TEMPO mis-read, not a beat misread. Anyway, my question is, after I make a few cutes and merge the files, I have been re-ANALISING the whole file again, basically starting over. This tends lead to NEW errors in analysis, usually, from the mid point of the song onward again.

So are you telling me to NOT re-analize the beats and tempo of the whole file again? Go straight from making cuts around the error points and merging said cuts, to copy track tempo to sequence?
Thanks