HOW CAN I AVOID PRO TOOLS?

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:18 pm

Phil O wrote:Perhaps one solution would be to have his clients ask the other studios to go out and purchase DP.

Phil

That was among one of my suggestions while playing devil's advocate in my first response, but even my best guess at this as a solution led to mixed probabilities.

If it's between using Pro Tools or losing work, then that's what it means. I'm not sure I fully understand the inner dynamics concerning zandurian's mix-- if the mix had been approved approved, then PT *not* have been required?

If that's the case, it seems to be a matter of simple cooperation where his producers would allow him to take their suggestions back to DP so that he could fine tune the project.

Why it MUST be otherwise finished in PT is a mystery. If that were the case, it should have been made clear to him before they hired him to do the work. To wait until the final stages of the project to require him to add PT is disingenuous on their part, imho. They should either work with him or set him up with what he needs since the issue was raised post facto.

M-Powered starts in around $300, so if that's the most pragmatic solution where a compromise must be made, then at least it's not a huge cash outlay. Even an agreement to split that cost would be good sportsmanship. The only thing that would need to be learned in a pinch would be importing and bouncing stems, facilitating universal porting of audio tracks where OMF issues remain unreliable.

zandurian · Post by **zandurian** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:18 pm

I was hoping there was a conversion program - at least something that would put the soundfiles in there proper place and keep basic track names and volumes intact. Years ago I heard that something existed like that.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:27 pm

zandurian wrote:I was hoping there was a conversion program - at least something that would put the soundfiles in there proper place and keep basic track names and volumes intact. Years ago I heard that something existed like that.

I don't have PT, but I've been wondering about this change of file name extension MOTU has adopted for the sake of better compatibility. I really need to start reading up on PT/DP/DAE issues of late-- since I've not used DAE since DP 2.7. My project is coming up in October, so I need to get cracking on this.

Zandurian, how are you doing with this, bud? Any conclusions?

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:43 pm

Frodo wrote:
Phil O wrote:Perhaps one solution would be to have his clients ask the other studios to go out and purchase DP.

Phil
That was among one of my suggestions while playing devil's advocate in my first response...

Sorry I missed that. Yes, I was playing devil's advocate as well. I guess I was too subtle.

Phil

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:07 pm

Phil O wrote:
Frodo wrote:
Phil O wrote:Perhaps one solution would be to have his clients ask the other studios to go out and purchase DP.

Phil
That was among one of my suggestions while playing devil's advocate in my first response...
Sorry I missed that. Yes, I was playing devil's advocate as well. I guess I was too subtle.

Phil

The devil's in the details!!

Ah, this PT/DP thing is a pain in the brain and wallet. The whole Digidesign approach to exclusivity simply plays against cross compatibility *to some extent*, requiring considerable head-scratching. This, of course, is apart from considerations to use or not use PT.

This is summertime-- the living should be easy, according to Gershwin-- grilling in the back yard with friends and family, heaping bowls of fresh strawberries and peaches slathered in sweet cream, a splash in the pool or a romp in the surf and sun...

Instead, we're considering Pro Tools!

Ugh. Something's not right with this picture.

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:39 pm

Yes indeed, Mr. Frodo. Details are are the root of all evil, or somethin' like that. Anyway, I do agree that I should be out grilling in the back yard, but I'm busy at work trying to make a living. (with DP

) Right now the guys in the band I'm recording are ordering pizza and I'm taking a break and visiting my favorite on-line hang out.

Regarding my comment about asking the other studio to purchase DP, I was simply trying to illustrate that every argument has two sides. I was taking the side of the original "How can I avoid PT?" topic for emphasis. My subtleness is often missed. Such is the risk of on-line communications.

Pizza's here. Ciao.

Phil

bongo_x · Post by **bongo_x** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:02 pm

zandurian wrote:I was hoping there was a conversion program - at least something that would put the soundfiles in there proper place and keep basic track names and volumes intact. Years ago I heard that something existed like that.

I just don't think I could trust anything like that. are the soundfiles really in the right place?

there are lots of original mboxen on ebay for cheap. you need to check out how much the software upgrades are though.

I'm not sure what your work involves, but if your talking about mixing, many people have requirements for the way mixes are submitted. I ask for all tracks to be consolidated, clearly marked with a bullet at the front of the name, no plugins (all fx printed, with dry versions of the tracks available). some people specify that you must get it down to 48 tracks.

even if you have PT and someone gives you a sessions that's a mess, you'd have to have $10k worth of plugins (and tdm) just to be compatible. make THEM bounce and consolidate everything. that way you also don't get lot's of lame "oh, that was supposed to be unmuted there" crap.

different people work differently. I'm not sure why that's so hard for everyone to remember, human nature I guess. working as a composer is nothing like running a studio for hire, is not like working as an editor, recording rock bands, or producing radio spots. I don't think it's appropriate to get mad and insult people because they don't do things your way or agree with you.

I know many people/studios who bought logic and DP just for compatibility even though no one uses them. that's actually one of the reasons I got into DP, working with bands that did their demos in DP.

bb

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:20 pm

Phil O wrote:Yes indeed, Mr. Frodo. Details are are the root of all evil, or somethin' like that. Anyway, I do agree that I should be out grilling in the back yard, but I'm busy at work trying to make a living. (with DP ) Right now the guys in the band I'm recording are ordering pizza and I'm taking a break and visiting my favorite on-line hang out.

Regarding my comment about asking the other studio to purchase DP, I was simply trying to illustrate that every argument has two sides. I was taking the side of the original "How can I avoid PT?" topic for emphasis. My subtleness is often missed. Such is the risk of on-line communications.

Pizza's here. Ciao.

Phil

Hey Phil O--

It's Frod O again!

Oh, I gotcha-- and perhaps I was too subtle by trying in some way to indicate that I'm way ahead of ya and in total agreement. There are always two sides to any debate-- and my sympathies are clearly on zandurian's side where he should be accommodated instead of being put through a poorly-timed decision making process.

His plight only serves to reinforce the long standing issue of using either/or or both. Ugh.

But that you are working on a project is reason enough to celebrate-- if you can't get to the beach it's always good to be creative and productive. Besides, good old 'zza is as good a summertime fellowship food as any I know!

Enjoy-- and best of luck with your project!

Akai96 · Post by **Akai96** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:22 pm

bongo_x wrote:
zandurian wrote:I was hoping there was a conversion program - at least something that would put the soundfiles in there proper place and keep basic track names and volumes intact. Years ago I heard that something existed like that.
I just don't think I could trust anything like that. are the soundfiles really in the right place?

there are lots of original mboxen on ebay for cheap. you need to check out how much the software upgrades are though.

I'm not sure what your work involves, but if your talking about mixing, many people have requirements for the way mixes are submitted. I ask for all tracks to be consolidated, clearly marked with a bullet at the front of the name, no plugins (all fx printed, with dry versions of the tracks available). some people specify that you must get it down to 48 tracks.

even if you have PT and someone gives you a sessions that's a mess, you'd have to have $10k worth of plugins (and tdm) just to be compatible. make THEM bounce and consolidate everything. that way you also don't get lot's of lame "oh, that was supposed to be unmuted there" crap.

different people work differently. I'm not sure why that's so hard for everyone to remember, human nature I guess. working as a composer is nothing like running a studio for hire, is not like working as an editor, recording rock bands, or producing radio spots. I don't think it's appropriate to get mad and insult people because they don't do things your way or agree with you.

I know many people/studios who bought logic and DP just for compatibility even though no one uses them. that's actually one of the reasons I got into DP, working with bands that did their demos in DP.

bb

That's what I'm talkin about.

Shooshie · Post by **Shooshie** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:55 pm

jstaczek wrote:Shooshie, you said:

The majority of my projects would have been impossible to create in Pro Tools. (repeat: not merely difficult; impossible) It just wasn't made for that.
As a daily user of both DP and PT (I've scored feature films in both), I'm very curious to know what was unique about the majority of your projects that made them impossible to create in PT?

Thanks,

Things like 350 MIDI tracks (PT doesn't even allow that many, IIRC) with tempo tracks that required tricks such as "Adjust Beats" or "Tap Tempo" and with various proportional stretches involved, and lots of other MIDI techniques. PT is an audio DAW, not MIDI. It is making progress in the MIDI department as of the past few years, but prior to that, its MIDI implementation was remedial to put it charitably. I could go on with many more things, such as device groups and routing/cabling of MIDI devices (of course, that has something to do with the MIDI Time Piece, too), but I've said enough. PT was not even something we could have considered for those projects.

I've read everyone's comments. Short on time, or I'd respond, but then again, there's no real reason to say more. We all know how the others think, and nobody's going to change any minds around here, so it's been interesting reading. Later...

Shooshie

zed · Post by **zed** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:58 pm

zandurian wrote:I was hoping there was a conversion program - at least something that would put the soundfiles in there proper place and keep basic track names and volumes intact. Years ago I heard that something existed like that.

Isn't it this?
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?lan ... temid=4873

Click on the details for more information. I think DP can save in OFM format that can be imported into PT by Digitranslator keeping all the things you mentioned intact... but I have had no first hand experience as to how well it works.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:04 pm

OMF interchange has yielded mixed results. Actually, since DP 5 was released, some people were actually praising it for having worked-- and all too soon there were reports here that it just didn't quite cut the mustard.

I've never attempted it myself, either, but I'm starting to wonder what the MF really stands for!

kelldammit · Post by **kelldammit** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:54 pm

if the client can't give you a good reason why they want pt, and you think you stand a chance at convincing them to go with dp, then by all means, go for it. remember, though, that customer service is the name of the game. hearing "my way or the highway" from you is going to do serious damage to their view of you and your attitude. accomodate them if you can. try to persuade them if you must. but if they just won't do it your way, and you just can't grit your teeth, smile, and do it theirs...at very least, be cool, friendly, and recommend someone (good) who will. either way, you want their experience with you to be a positive thing. people DO remember stuff like this (the client as well as the guy who you recommended), and this could either make your day, or really bite you in the ass at some point in the future.

as for the reasoning why it MUST be kept in pt format, quite possibly they're just looking to have any and every step of the process ready to be opened at any other studio (anywhere else) to revise/tweak/whatever. you have to admit, dealing with a single project file has got to be easier than importing audio files (some with fx, some without, etc etc etc). as a bonus, all the mixer sliders are in their proper places, and you have total recall of the project every step of the way. that makes for good archiving.

also, the big name user mentioned awhile back was actually looking for someone to demonstrate to him a solid, reliable *logic* system in dae mode. if he could load a project in it and not get it to crash, he'd hook up the lucky soul with dinner, time, beats, whatever...
said user generally uses logic to compose, peak to edit, and pt to mix audio. an interesting aside: most of the "big name" logic users operate similarly. compose/sequence in logic, but audio is invariably pt.

kell

kassonica · Post by **kassonica** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:25 pm

I've never attempted it myself, either, but I'm starting to wonder what the MF really stands for

Ha HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Made my day that one frodo

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

zandurian · Post by **zandurian** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:19 pm

Frodo wrote:
zandurian wrote: Zandurian, how are you doing with this, bud? Any conclusions?

Okay, not to incite more controversy, but what are the numbers - how many DP users and How many PT users. Am I overestimating PT's market share? It seems HUGE.