recording drums

[nick danger]

I'm about to make my first attempt at recording a full drum kit. I've got an 828mkII, a couple of 828mkI's I could chain to it, and a presonus bluetube 2-channel preamp (sadly unmodded now that Black Lion discontinued it.) The mics I have available are AKG 1000 (2); AKG 3000 (1); AKG 4000 (1) Audio-Technica 3035 (1) and some Shure 57's and 58's.

For now, I'm just going to record it clean-- no effects or compression.

Any suggestions on setup?

thanks in advance for any advice.

[BradLyons]

Well, how big is the kit you're recording? Here's my setup while I'm at it:

[chrispick]

Well, how big is the kit you're recording?

Well, you can record a big kit with two mics if you want that particular sound.

That's the more important question: What sort of recorded kit sound are you going for?

If you're going for the usual rock thing, looking at your mic selection, I think you're at least missing a good kick mic (D112, RE20, maybe MD421 -- there are others) and two good overheads (often people opt for the best matched LDCs they can get their hands on).

[Jim]

I'm about to make my first attempt at recording a full drum kit. I've got an 828mkII, a couple of 828mkI's I could chain to it, and a presonus bluetube 2-channel preamp (sadly unmodded now that Black Lion discontinued it.) The mics I have available are AKG 1000 (2); AKG 3000 (1); AKG 4000 (1) Audio-Technica 3035 (1) and some Shure 57's and 58's.

For now, I'm just going to record it clean-- no effects or compression.

Any suggestions on setup?

thanks in advance for any advice.

For the mics you have, I'd suggest you use your two 1000s for overheads, the 4000 on kick, the 57 on snare, and the 3000 on the high hat. And the 58 for the drummer to yell, "heahhhh" into.

Brad... ya' think you have enough overhead mics? Two sets of Earthworks? Nice.

[nick danger]

Being a total novice at this, I'm not exactly sure what my goal is. I know my mic set isn't exactly the best, but just trying to make do with what I have to get a half-way decent demo recording. I'm open to suggestions on mics to augment what I have, keeping in mind that my present budget hovers in the couple of hundred range.

The drummer will be here with the rest of the band soon, and I'll know what he wants to record. He's got as full a set (minus all the cool mics) that Brad shows, but has been using a pared-down set for this particular band-- a minimal mic setup might be adequate for that.

I'll let you all know what the drum setup will be. Thanks for the advice so far.

[sdemott]

Given what you have - I'd go with a "less is more" approach.

One approach is the "Glyn Johns" technique (think Led Zeppelin). 3 LDCs 1 in front of the kit about 6 feet about as high as the drummer chest. One to the left of the drummer at the height of the drummer's head aimed at the snare, and the last to the right of the drummer, at head height aimed at the snare.

Another approach is the mono overhead idea: a snare mic (57), a kick mic (C4000 - though a D112 or a D6 would be ideal, the C4000 is pretty good at this), and a single overhead mic (AT3035 or C3000). The trick is to get the overhead positioned so that you get a good balance of all the drums, and just use the snare & kick mics to add punch. You can also add the unused LDC as a room mic.

Keep in mind, that the more mics you add the more issues you will have with phase relationships. I can get a fantastic drum sound with 3 or 4 mics, a good kit & a good drummer.

[gregwhartley]

Good luck with whatever you decide to do - mic'ing drums is my favorite thing ever, there are always so many great techniques and creative choices to go about it with! My best advice is to listen to how the mics sound during mic placement through headphones and to place a room mic if you've got enough inputs/mics available. Also utilize the room as part of the instrument from the beginning to avoid kicking yourself later for the extra work odd reflections can create.

[BradLyons]

Yeah, it does depend on the sound you're after! I come from the world of progressive rock where every part of the drum is intregal to the mix. Personally, I prefer to mic every drum as well as Hi Hat and Ride. However depending on your mics and placement, Ride isn't exactly necessary. The same could be said for the Hi Hat, but distance miking on the hi hat just doesn't work for me personally. I may not use all the mics that are there, but if I have them recorded to choose from later then I have the options.

ONE NOTE OF ADVICE ABOUT DRUM RECORDING.... it's not like recording typical instruments. You do NOT need to get the most gain before clipping on each microphone like you do with say recording vocals or guitars, etc. It's about getting the right balance. A good overhead recording will pick up enough snare to provide tone, but not so much that it is slamming through the overheads above the cymbals. The miking setup you see in my picture will have a few more microphones. I'm actually going to be bringing in lots of different mics (not all at the same time, of course! haha) and doing some test recording of examples of how different a kit would sound with TC30's over the kit v/s a Royer SF12 v/s say Shure SM81's or KM184's. The same for kick drum mics, as well as how different the same mics going through different pres will sound. NOTE on the two sets of Earthworks mics there.... the TC30's are just above the kit while the QTC40's are out in front to capture more of the low-end of the shells. When you hear this combination together, it's quite interesting! I'll post this in a few weeks.

As to the original post at hand, yes a good kick mic is missing. IMHO you need at least (4) mics to get a decent drum recording..... KICK, SNARE TOP and STEREO OVERHEADS. Personally, I prefer to mike the Toms individually, also mike the beater side of the kick as well as bottom of the snare (when mixed in, this is a wonderful combination!!), and the Hi Hat. With what you have, use the C1000's as overheads and I agree the C4000 on kick.

[nick danger]

Thanks for all the replies-- it's been a big help. I have a better idea of what mics I need to fill the holes in my arsenal of drum mics, and I have a pretty good idea of how to get the best performance out of the ones I currently have.

Can't ask for more than that.

[aizo]

this doesnt have to do with the previous posters question but it is about recording drums. i didnt think i should start a new thread...so i am just gonna add to this one since it is already about recording drums.


ok...

i hate recording my drums. i feel like im gonna esplode(yes esplode not explode...it's much worse trust me) when i am done and they just sound so crappy. i wanna go postal and freak right out. i have a nice kit. great mics.
beta 52 on the kick. 57 on the snare. 4 md441..or 421's i cant remember.
you can look at the pic and tell me. and 3 oktava mc012's on hihats and overheads. my preamps are presonus m80 and for the overheads i use a mp20(presonus). they all go into my hd 192. i have great plugs and everything. so. obviously it is my technique and skill that just sucks. i have never gone to school for engineering. but i listen and have read everything i can get my greasy fingers on recording and doing whatever for drums. a few problems i have are the hihat sound sucks. and also it bleeds a lot into my sd mic. my bass drum sound i can get punchy...but it jsut doesnt sound good. the toms are a real problem becuase whenever i hit the kick i get that wooom sound from the toms resonating. the only time i can get a good sound is if i manually cut out the tom hits. overall i cant get get a good sound. im ready to stop recording drums sell all my gear and jsut write electronic music i am so mad. a really big problem i have is that my kit is in my bedroom. not only that i live in a trailer. yes a freaking double wide. sorry i spent all my moneys on gear. anyway i wanna tell you guys some things i am doing and maybe you can tell me it is not a good idea or try something else. i have 9 tracks. bd, sd, hh, tom 1-4, and oh l and r. i pan tom 1 and 2 at 10 and 2, tom 3 at 3 and tom 4 at 5 or 6. i do this becuase to me this is what my kit looks like to me as the drummer and i how i imagine it in the stereo spectrum. i have all the outputs go into an aux track. like a sub mix. then an aux from the send of the sd for some reverb. most of the time compress then eq. i realize i need i need some changes. ••••. im ready to jump someone save me!!!!

anyway, here are some pics. sorry for the bad quality....but my cam is broken so i had to take them with my laptop cam. useful lil macbook!

[dr. Fill]

Looking at the pics It look like the tom mic's will pick up a lot of snare.
Try an different OH setup.
now the look like \ / which is kinda wrong combing to different stereo techniques.
try | | (normal AB) or \/ (xy) or / \ (NOS, ORTF)

Then when you've recorded. Flip the phase on all the mic's axcept the overheads. Just to see if they sound better in or out phase. You'll be surprised on how muched sound you can "get back".

And just one silly remark: Are the MD421 set to S(peech) or M(usic) (the filter) they should be M but I think you took care of that.

Hope it helps

[aizo]

dude is that what that damn s and m stood for?!!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

i looked for years trying to figure out what those meant!!!! damn!!!!!!

ok wow!!! i am stupid. well keep the comments comming please.

i need to test suggestions!!!!

[zara_drummer]

I dont mean to nit pick or anything, but the way you have your tom mics mounted to the toms can also cause some problems for you.

Those clips are great for live sound, but I have found that recording with them you get alot of extra sound from the clip vibrating with the sound of the drum.


I think your hat mic probably pics up more than just the hat...Try pointing it more downward and away from the drums, but over the Hats...

And like the good Dr said...placement of the tom mics needs to be adjusted.

The capsule on the 421 is at the end...so if its not pointing at the head of the tom its not gonna get enough of that sound. Point it downward more toword the drum and that should help you some.

[Jim]

One approach is the "Glyn Johns" technique (think Led Zeppelin).

I read the Jimmy Page page on Wikipedia this weekend. He said he hired a new engineer between every album because he wanted people to know that the Led Zep sound was his, not some hired gun's.

Aizo, I think what I've learned that compression is the key to getting your drums to sound like they do on a record. Experiment with your mic placement, as a few inches can make a big difference. Start by pointing your drum mics right at the center of the drum head, and use the directional properties of the mics to avoid spill, esp on your snare mic.

In your mix, use lo cut/hi pass EQ to remove sub 500K frequencies from all your channels except the kick and lo toms. Start at 500, and adjust to taste. That should remove a bunch of muddy build-up. Don't be shy about experimenting with extreme EQ settings on your snare mic.

Encourage your drummer to hit the skins hard, and the cymbals soft.

[BradLyons]

I've been recording drums for years, both small and excessively large. My biggest challenge was miking Terry Bozio's kit running live sound for him a concert in Connecticut---used about 40-mics in all! Starting with a good kit helps, oh yeah a good player too. And then the gear. Well, you have decent gear and certainly standards for the mics. Using an SM57 on snare is a standard as are MD421's on toms. One thing to keep in mind when recording drums is all rules are out the window in reguards to standard recording of other instruments--such as GETTING MAXIMUM, NOMINAL GAIN. This is, IMHO, the biggest myth in drum recording is to get every microphone the loudest before clipping the converter and you soooooo do not need (or want!) to do this. Remember, drum recording is recording multiple instruments with multiple mics at a time. When you crank up your mics, you often get more than you want.

Let me start first with the SNARE DRUM..... The Shure SM57 is just fine on top of a snare, the ideal position is behind the snare facing in with the Hi Hat behind it. I just realized you're kit is setup Hi Tom to Low tom Right to left, so that one threw me for a minute! You want to aim it towards the center, but more of a 45 degree angle so that it will pick up the rim and the center of the snare. YOU DO NOT NEED EXCESSIVE GAIN...just enough to pick up the sound of the snare. Getting bleed from the Hi Hat is normal, but if it's blaring through--your gain is just too hot on the snare mic. Let me ask you this, are you miking the bottom of the snare? If you're not, oh you have no idea what you're missing! The bottom has so many harmonics that by itself, it sucks--but mixed in with the top of the snare it sounds wonderful!!

KICK DRUM, there are many ways to do this depending on the make-up and size of the shell. Personally, I use at least two mics on kick but I prefer (3). I always use a front head with a hole in it, that helps to trap in air and force it out the port-hole. If the kick is closed, you don't get that air. If it's fully open, there's no pressure. I use an AUDIX D6 inside the kick in the center, half-way into the drum. I use a BLUE KICK BALL on the outside of the head pointed right at the beater to get me that punch and click. I also use a WOOD beater, it makes a difference over felt. When available, I'll try to put a LDC microphone on the outside of the sound hole.

ONE HUGE DIFFERENCE WITH KICK AND SNARE is your choice of mic-pre. While the M80 is certainly an excellent all-around pre, neither it or the MP20 are ideal for kick and snare because they don't give you that tone, punch, depth, and attack. Notice I said "IDEAL", not that it won't work..... Personally, I use a Presonus ADL600 which is a tube pre that has phenominal coloration, but unilke most tube-pres it's not mushy. The punch is amazing just using the D6 inside the kick and the KickBall on the outside of the beater.

TOMS, your M80 is fine for this and your mic placement is halfway there. You do want to aim the mic towards the center and have the end of the capsule at least a few inches off of the head. If too close, you get low-end mud. If too far away, you lose some tone. As to mounting or putting the mics on stands, DON'T WORRY--IT DOESN'T MATTER. Yes, it's true you'll get resonance....but that's what GATES ARE FOR! I don't use mounts in my studio on my Audix mics (I have the D2's and a D4 for my Toms) mainly because they won't fit on my suspenion rims. And well I find that on stands, I have more choices for placement and positioning to be honest. Like recording snare, there is a fine balance between enough and too much gain. YOU DO NOT NEED TO WORRY ABOUT GETTING THE MAXIMUM GAIN BEFORE CLIPPING, BECAUSE IF YOU DO YOU'LL HAVE TOO MUCH GAIN. Remember, you're most likely going to be compressing these tracks, that's what make-up gain is for. The idea is to record the TOM hit and sustain, and as little of everything else as possible. With proper level (and you don't need much) and gating later, it's going to sound just fine. The mics you're using are standards, so they are fine. The M80 will work just fine as well, it doesn't have the transient attack of say a True Systems Precision8--but again, it will work just fine.


OVERHEADS, not a fan of those mics--but they'll work. HOWEVER, place them STRAIGHT DOWN over the kit. When crossed that way in an A/B pattern, phase can happen and you lose your stereo dimension. When used in A/B, you want to keep them distant to create that L/R image. If you want to put them on a stereo bar in X/Y, then straight over top of your kit. With good mic placement, you shouldn't need to mike the Ride. HOWEVER, I'd definitely mike the Hi Hat--I like a direct hat sound, not a distant hat sound. I see you have a C451B on the Hat, at least I think it's that? Anyway, THIS IS TRICKY... you want to play with different positioning. Moving it from the back to the front, playing with the angle and spacing can have DRAMATIC differences.

Here's a picture above my kit, if it helps




Also here's a picture of the front with added Earthworks QTC40's in front of the kit (I also use TC30's over the kit).



I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH..... Before you worry about TOMS, HI HAT, etc... you should get a good balanced mix FIRST with your Kick, Snare and Overheads. From there, you can balance in the rest. Let the drummer play while you find the appropriate levels, solo the tracks during play, etc. If you're recording yourself, get another drummer friend to comer over. Although styles and velocity will be different, it gives you the ability to at least be in the studio and listen through your monitors. YES, LISTEN THROUGH THE MONITORS.... Mic Placement at the source is always the BEST way to get the BEST sound. You need to listen as to what spots work and which ones don't.

Here's a clip I've posted here a few times (and eventually, I'll post the fully-miked kit!!!)....that demonstrates the sound of just (2) kick tracks and (2) overhead mics. I think we have the same snare

http://www.audioandmidi.com/media/audio ... _drums.wav