NEWS FLASH! TAP TEMPO! I cracked the code!

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Shooshie
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Post by Shooshie »

rentadrummer wrote:I'm not Waxman but I've thinking about what you just described. I'm wondering if Tap Tempo isn't what I need in the first place, and I should be using Adjust Beats.

You once explained to me how to use this feature on a drum track I had already recorded, but now I'm thinking I might be able to use it on an audio band track, before I record the drums, to align the original audio track to the grid first. I'm not sure if I understand it well enough to know if this will do what I want it to, but I'll look at your old emails with the info and play around with it. As long as it doesn't move the original audio on the time line, and just shifts the bar lines, this could be a good solution.
Let me know if you need any help. I was using Record Beats again last night and followed it with Adjust Beats. If you can wrap your head around the way it works, Record Beats actually is pretty effective. I think there is a delay happening, because i'm using it with a VI and a fairly good-sized buffer. I don't think it's compensating for that latency, because all my beats are about an 8th note off. I was able to shift the whole thing, conductor track and all, and it worked out ok. I had to shift the notes and data a little farther than the conductor track's tempo tics. To compensate for this latency, you might want to set your MIDI output for an external rack instrument and lower your buffer to 64.

In fact, I'll just share some observations about it right now. I think it works best in combination with the WAIT function. Use "Tap is First Beat." If you have any data before the first note, don't shift data to 1.1.000. That could include a pickup beat, patch changes, controllers, and so forth. But if your downbeat note is the first thing out there, you might try checking that box.

Also, since I have controllers before the first note (the shift pedal on the piano VI I was using), I actually shifted everything to start at bar 2, and then set the sequence to start on bar 0. ("Set Chunk Start" in the Chunks Window mini-menu) The net result is that my music starts on bar 1, but there's a measure "0" preceding it which contains my controllers that begin before the beat of bar 1. This whole paragraph may be of no use to you if you don't have controllers or other data preceding the first measure, or if your music does not start with a pickup.

From this point on, it's pretty straightforward. Just set your cursor (the green wiper) to the first tappable beat, click the "WAIT" button (or hit / on the keypad), select Record Beats, and start tapping. You can watch the cursor approaching the notes for an extra visual cue to help with the timing if the beat is rubato.

Don't make any mistakes, because it's hard to fix them. Often it's easier to Undo the whole thing and start again.

Shooshie
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Post by monkey man »

At this point Shooshie deserves a short refreshments break...

I've said it before, but his name is Shooshie, and he's all ours. :D

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Kubi

Post by Kubi »

FMiguelez wrote:Now, if I remember correctly from that thread long ago, Magic D stated that this QT behaviour was supposed to be like that... Don't quote me on this, and I apologize to MD if me neurons betray me regarding this, but I still haven't been able to figure out why anyone would want the QT movie to slowdown or speed up according to the tapping. Beats the hell out of me. And I haven't been able to figure out either what MOTU is waiting for to fix this embarassing and laughable little bug. Or feature???
Have you tried to use Record Beats instead of Tap Tempo? After reading this thread, i just read up on the difference between the two. I realize I usually automatically tend to use Tap Tempo. But it looks like conceptually, the idea is that while Tap Tempo lets you 'conduct' DP, taking control of all its timing, Record Beats lets you interpret for DP the ebb and flow of something already existing.

Now, I'm guessing that since Record Beats i.e. doesn't change the playback of a given MIDI track (in fact, it allows you to follow a wild MIDI track), it may also leave QT playback alone. Worth a try?

Manual page 681.
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Post by FMiguelez »

Kubi wrote:
FMiguelez wrote:Now, if I remember correctly from that thread long ago, Magic D stated that this QT behaviour was supposed to be like that... Don't quote me on this, and I apologize to MD if me neurons betray me regarding this, but I still haven't been able to figure out why anyone would want the QT movie to slowdown or speed up according to the tapping. Beats the hell out of me. And I haven't been able to figure out either what MOTU is waiting for to fix this embarassing and laughable little bug. Or feature???
Have you tried to use Record Beats instead of Tap Tempo? After reading this thread, i just read up on the difference between the two. I realize I usually automatically tend to use Tap Tempo. But it looks like conceptually, the idea is that while Tap Tempo lets you 'conduct' DP, taking control of all its timing, Record Beats lets you interpret for DP the ebb and flow of something already existing.

Now, I'm guessing that since Record Beats i.e. doesn't change the playback of a given MIDI track (in fact, it allows you to follow a wild MIDI track), it may also leave QT playback alone. Worth a try?

Manual page 681.
Hi, Kubi. You're right. They're conceptually very similar. The thing is that I like using the feature I describe at THE SAME time as playing some kind of melodic idea. It's a standard technique. Tap a flowing tempo while you play a phrase on the keyboard. Back at school we used to do this with a stop-watch and singing the phrase... Now, it should be perfect doable with DP.
Your idea makes perfect sense, except that record beats won't let you tap and play at the same time, since DP will listen to the tapping from any keyboard note. I don't have my maual with me right now, but if I recall correctly, there's no way to tell DP to only listen to the tap from certain keyboard range, as opposed to tapping.
I'll make sure about this tomorrow, but I'm almost positive you can't :(
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Post by Frodo »

FMiguelez wrote:I don't have my maual with me right now, but if I recall correctly, there's no way to tell DP to only listen to the tap from certain keyboard range, as opposed to tapping.
I'll make sure about this tomorrow, but I'm almost positive you can't :(
Happily, you can assign DP a controller or note # for tapping. I assigned C7-- the highest note on my keyboard. This means that until I disable it, I can't use C7 to input any other MIDI data.
DP5 Manual, p. 921 wrote: You can use any standard MIDI event as your tap source. DP will interpret this MIDI event as a tap whenever it occurs on the specified input channel. If you plan to record music while slaved to Tap Tempo, choose a combination of a MIDI event and a channel that won't be needed in the musical passage..."
Check out the Receive Sync preferences (DP Preferences menu) for Tap Tempo on the right side of the window to select the input device source, to set the specific event number assignment you prefer, and to set the number of countoff beats DP will "listen" for before it begins registering Tap Tempo beats for mapping.

Is that what you were looking for, FM?
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Post by FMiguelez »

Frodo wrote:
FMiguelez wrote:I don't have my maual with me right now, but if I recall correctly, there's no way to tell DP to only listen to the tap from certain keyboard range, as opposed to tapping.
I'll make sure about this tomorrow, but I'm almost positive you can't :(
Happily, you can assign DP a controller or note # for tapping. I assigned C7-- the highest note on my keyboard. This means that until I disable it, I can't use C7 to input any other MIDI data.
DP5 Manual, p. 921 wrote: You can use any standard MIDI event as your tap source. DP will interpret this MIDI event as a tap whenever it occurs on the specified input channel. If you plan to record music while slaved to Tap Tempo, choose a combination of a MIDI event and a channel that won't be needed in the musical passage..."
Check out the Receive Sync preferences (DP Preferences menu) for Tap Tempo on the right side of the window to select the input device source, to set the specific event number assignment you prefer, and to set the number of countoff beats DP will "listen" for before it begins registering Tap Tempo beats for mapping.

Is that what you were looking for, FM?
No, you're right regarding that. What I meant in the above paragraph was being able to tell DP which note will be used for tapping for RECORD BEATS. I also have assigned the highest MIDI note in my controller for tapping the tempo when slaved to tap tempo mode, but this is NOT possible for RECORD BEATS, is it?

If it is, then I am embarassed... :?
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Post by FMiguelez »

.

I THINK that's what Kubbi was suggesting, but if memory serves me well, that's only possilble (to assign a particular MIDI note or pedal) to do with TAP tempo slave mode, NOT Record Beats... Me thinks...

And if so, then we're back to sqauare one...

So far, according to my not-too-big brain, the only way to record a tempo map succesfully with slave-tap tempo mode WHILE watching a QT movie, is either, with an extra computer running the QT, or using one of the 2 methods I mentioned a few posts above. The 1st one I mentioned is plain ridiculous. The 2nd one is the one I've been using (recording the melody and the tap tempo in a regular MIDI track, and then using the Adjust Beats command for them to line up).

I'm MORE than willing to stand corrected on this...
Last edited by FMiguelez on Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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Post by Shooshie »

FMiguelez wrote:
Kubi wrote:
FMiguelez wrote:Now, if I remember correctly from that thread long ago, Magic D stated that this QT behaviour was supposed to be like that... Don't quote me on this, and I apologize to MD if me neurons betray me regarding this, but I still haven't been able to figure out why anyone would want the QT movie to slowdown or speed up according to the tapping. Beats the hell out of me. And I haven't been able to figure out either what MOTU is waiting for to fix this embarassing and laughable little bug. Or feature???
Have you tried to use Record Beats instead of Tap Tempo? After reading this thread, i just read up on the difference between the two. I realize I usually automatically tend to use Tap Tempo. But it looks like conceptually, the idea is that while Tap Tempo lets you 'conduct' DP, taking control of all its timing, Record Beats lets you interpret for DP the ebb and flow of something already existing.

Now, I'm guessing that since Record Beats i.e. doesn't change the playback of a given MIDI track (in fact, it allows you to follow a wild MIDI track), it may also leave QT playback alone. Worth a try?

Manual page 681.
Hi, Kubi. You're right. They're conceptually very similar. The thing is that I like using the feature I describe at THE SAME time as playing some kind of melodic idea. It's a standard technique. Tap a flowing tempo while you play a phrase on the keyboard. Back at school we used to do this with a stop-watch and singing the phrase... Now, it should be perfect doable with DP.
Your idea makes perfect sense, except that record beats won't let you tap and play at the same time, since DP will listen to the tapping from any keyboard note. I don't have my maual with me right now, but if I recall correctly, there's no way to tell DP to only listen to the tap from certain keyboard range, as opposed to tapping.
I'll make sure about this tomorrow, but I'm almost positive you can't :(

Record beats is only for adding barlines to your performance. It doesn't actually change the performance or set any tempos. Visually, it applies tempos to each beat, but only so that each beat or barline you changed will still play exactly as it did before you recorded the beats.

Not having actually used Tap Tempo with a movie soundtrack, I can only guess at what it's doing. If it appears that the movie is jumping around, that would be because it has to change its display to match up with the music, wouldn't it? Wouldn't that be expected? Normal?

The music display is not going to change. But the points at which it lines up with movie frames will be changing constantly as you tap the tempo. Is this not what it's doing?

Shooshie
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Post by FMiguelez »

.

Hi, Shooshie. Yes. Precisely. But this is one of those rare cases where normal or expected behaviour doesn't make sense. The QT should be able to run freely, completely disregarding the tap tempo. Otherwise, the purpose for this particular case (tapping a tempo map while viewing the QT and playing a melodic idea) can't be done.

And, I still can't figure out why anyone would want the QT movie to reflect the tap tempo changes...
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---------------------------

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Post by Shooshie »

Ok... I'm going to have to load a movie and see if I can figure out your problem. The things you're describing sound perfectly normal to me. If you change the tempo of the song, let's say cutting it in half, you're going to suddenly see the movie jump to a new location that is twice as far into it. If you speed the song up by double, then the movie will jump backward to half its former timeframes.

I'm going to go check and see if that's not what's happening.

Shooshie
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Kubi

Post by Kubi »

Yes, I believe there's the problem - I too suspect DP does exactly what it needs to do, try on the fly to keep up with the relationship between QT and sequence. Of course I wouldn't know for certain: I don't know anyone else who works that way, tapping while playing. Record Beats allows you to simply play free of tempo (like, two-handed), and then do a pass to tell DP where the barlines are.

Now I understand that your approach saves a pass (and makes you a pretty fine musician indeed!), but most people I know, myself included, would default to simply playing without any tempo to a film, and then adjust the barlines later as needed...

I guess MOTU could implement a "freewheel movie when Conductor Track goes into record" option. A similar function used to exist when syncing to TC, allowing you to just trigger the sync and then everyone would run on their own - this option was a life saver when the time code source wasn't extra-stable and would f*ck up digital audio playback. Of course I haven't used SMPTE TC in ages... Thank Goodness!!!!
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Post by FMiguelez »

Shooshie wrote:Ok... I'm going to have to load a movie and see if I can figure out your problem. The things you're describing sound perfectly normal to me. If you change the tempo of the song, let's say cutting it in half, you're going to suddenly see the movie jump to a new location that is twice as far into it. If you speed the song up by double, then the movie will jump backward to half its former timeframes.

I'm going to go check and see if that's not what's happening.

Shooshie
Thank you, Shoosh. I appreciate you take the time to test this when you can. Just do a simple ritardando with your tapping, and you'll see the QT movie will slow down accordingly. Maybe that's how it's supposed to work, but WHY?? Who would want that?? And to what purpose??

Isn't what I'm whinning about more useful?? From a film scoring perspective, at least??

There are certain situations where a steady beat is not desired or appropiate for the scoring, and a more flowing tempo is needed. Instead of taking out my stopwatch and singing with my horrible voice like we used to do back at college, I always wanted to do this in DP. Just slave to tap tempo, tap with my left hand on the lowest or highest note of the keyboard (or even using the sustain pedal), and be able to jot down a simple melody phrase with my right hand. This way the melody seems to fit better, more naturally, like it is unavoidable...

Anyway, in lieu of this, i'm already used to do this exact same thing by the method I described previously. It's really not too big a deal, but it would definitely be a nice option or preference to have in DP 6.
I bet film scoring people won't complain if they implement this feature (free running QT movie despite tapping changes).

What do you think??
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Post by Shooshie »

Shooshie wrote:Ok... I'm going to have to load a movie and see if I can figure out your problem. The things you're describing sound perfectly normal to me. If you change the tempo of the song, let's say cutting it in half, you're going to suddenly see the movie jump to a new location that is twice as far into it. If you speed the song up by double, then the movie will jump backward to half its former timeframes.

I'm going to go check and see if that's not what's happening.

Shooshie

Fernando, The answer is to UNLOCK the video track. The lock is in the video window itself. Unlock it, then get ready to tap tempo. Put your mouse over the start button on the video window. Tap your countoff, and exactly when you reach your downbeat, hit the video start button. (It is freewheeling now, unconnected to the music) As you conduct your music, you can speed up or slow down as you see fit in order to nail scene changes. If you've got streaming markers, it will be helpful to you for nailing those cues. Once you're done, relock your video to the sequence, and it will now play as you conducted it.

Actually... I don't know what marker behavior is like when the video is unlocked. That might be a whole 'nother can of worms. :?

I'm not sure what's up with doing a tap-tempo while locked to the video window. It sure doesn't behave as I would expect for it to. More testing...

Later,

Shooshie
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Post by FMiguelez »

Kubi wrote:Now I understand that your approach saves a pass (and makes you a pretty fine musician indeed!), but most people I know, myself included, would default to simply playing without any tempo to a film, and then adjust the barlines later as needed...
Yeah. I also do this exact same thing sometimes. More out of necessity than by choice, but it definitely works.

Well, at the end of the day what matters most is to get the job done, by whatever means, right?

Sorry if I seem stubborn regarding what I want. I wouldn't mind having that option in DP6 :)

Cheers, and thank you for your patience.
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---------------------------

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Post by FMiguelez »

Shooshie wrote:
Shooshie wrote:Ok... I'm going to have to load a movie and see if I can figure out your problem. The things you're describing sound perfectly normal to me. If you change the tempo of the song, let's say cutting it in half, you're going to suddenly see the movie jump to a new location that is twice as far into it. If you speed the song up by double, then the movie will jump backward to half its former timeframes.

I'm going to go check and see if that's not what's happening.

Shooshie

Fernando, The answer is to UNLOCK the video track. The lock is in the video window itself. Unlock it, then get ready to tap tempo. Put your mouse over the start button on the video window. Tap your countoff, and exactly when you reach your downbeat, hit the video start button. (It is freewheeling now, unconnected to the music) As you conduct your music, you can speed up or slow down as you see fit in order to nail scene changes. If you've got streaming markers, it will be helpful to you for nailing those cues. Once you're done, relock your video to the sequence, and it will now play as you conducted it.

Actually... I don't know what marker behavior is like when the video is unlocked. That might be a whole 'nother can of worms. :?

I'm not sure what's up with doing a tap-tempo while locked to the video window. It sure doesn't behave as I would expect for it to. More testing...

Later,

Shooshie
Correct. Thank you for trying this out, Shoosh.
I used to do it like that. Sorry for quoting myself, but I wrote about this a few posts above regarding UNLOCKING the track:
FMiguelez wrote: BUT, as I remember (I quit doing it a while ago), it was not very practicall to unlock it. First, you needed to start the sequence with the QT locked (otherwise it starts playing without DP). At some point you then needed to unlock it with a quick click, then quickly prepare your left hand (or foot) to tap the desired tempo while the right hand would play some kind of melodic idea. Then you have to stop DP and the QT separately. Relock the QT and see if what you did worked or not.
And you better NOT make a mistake and get it perfect the first time around, or else, go back to the original point, and start all over again with all those steps. Believe me. I tried SO hard to make it work, but if I was an octopus it could've worked. But I only have 2 arms, and nothing kills the creative flow faster than doing all those steps.
Unless you discover something else, I suppose the answer is to do it the way Kubi suggests, or keep doing it as I've had to do it (record in a regular MIDI track the would-be tapped tempo AND some melodic phrase, then use Adjust beats command to have the conductor track do the tempo fluctuations).

Or, run the QT movie from another machine, and have it synchronized...

Or have MOTU give us a simple toggle preference where the QT will or won't follow the tapping...

I really appreciate you taking the time for testing this. Now, the work arounds are really not THAT bad. They're doable and they do work. They require an extra step, but I can live with that.

OTOH, I'm still very happy regarding your discovery, the one that made you write this thread in the 1st place. I had given up on that long ago, but to see that it's workable again is certainly great news.
Now I'll be able to use it :D

Thank you all for your patience and good will.
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.

---------------------------

"In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
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