Pro Verb Confusion

[Armageddon]

I'm talking about the actual EMT plate reverbs you were referencing from the old Neil Diamond recordings, etc., those were mono.

[EMRR]

just as easily stereo. there were both at the time.

[michkhol]

I'm afraid I'm too late for that interesting discussion. But here is what I found on the samplicity.com site:

Naming convention
Mono-to-stereo files end with "C" (for center). Use these files if you want to load a single impulse response. The input source should be quite narrow or mono.
Stereo-to-stereo files end with "L" and "R". Different convolution plugins handle stereo sets differently. For the Waves IR-1 for instance, you have to use the IR-1 "Full" version, which automatically will ask for two IR files ("this IR requires 4 channels"). In Pristine Space you can use one of the "true stereo" presets and load the L file into slot 1 and the R file into slot 2.

[Armageddon]

I'm afraid I'm too late for that interesting discussion. But here is what I found on the samplicity.com site:

Naming convention
Mono-to-stereo files end with "C" (for center). Use these files if you want to load a single impulse response. The input source should be quite narrow or mono.
Stereo-to-stereo files end with "L" and "R". Different convolution plugins handle stereo sets differently. For the Waves IR-1 for instance, you have to use the IR-1 "Full" version, which automatically will ask for two IR files ("this IR requires 4 channels"). In Pristine Space you can use one of the "true stereo" presets and load the L file into slot 1 and the R file into slot 2.

Thanks for the input and the research!

Unfortunately, this only pretty much confirms everything I've been asking about in this thread. Pro Verb appears to be able to only load one impulse at a time (Left, Right or Center), which means to me, even in a stereo instance of Pro Verb, you're only processing through a mono impulse and getting a two-channel mono reverb in return, not a stereo one. Therefore, you'd have to put two mono instances of Pro Verb on two mono busses, pan them hard left and and right (or not so hard left and right, if you were using the pans to control the "width" of the room), load their respective left and right impulses and send a track to both busses in order to get a true stereo reverb in return. That makes no sense to me -- you're wasting sends, you're wasting busses and you're eating up CPU by having to load up two Pro Verbs. Why doesn't Pro Verb just have the ability to load up a left AND a right impulse in one stereo instance?!? Either there's a deliberate reason that I'm overlooking (I still don't hear the "center impulse = stereo" that some of you have been saying) or this plug is woefully unfinished.

[EMRR]

You call it two channel mono return, I call it stereo. It would only be mono if the two return channels were truly identical, which they are not. I think thats the source of all the earlier confusion. If I pan a mono source in a stereo send feeding a center loaded Proverb instance, and listen to the 100% wet/0%dry return with no dry mono source otherwise returning, I hear movement of source within a stereo reverberation spread.

I've not seen any indication here that anyone at all has grasp my L and R observations and examples. Particularly the gunshot for film bit.

Different convolution plugins handle stereo sets differently.

is a warning that not every reverb necessarily follows the same standards of operation. In ProVerb we see the term matrix in the display, which is not the name of any individual IR, and suggest a matrix of several.

[stephentayler]

So I come back to my observation about the surround version of ProVerb.... there is no L, C or R to choose from here, instead there are the 12 clock positions.

Now don't tell me they recorded 12 impulses??? I think it may work differently.

Anyone enlighten us??

Cheers

Stephen

[EMRR]

Looking again, there are 5 mono impulses per setting option. lib/app support/motu/proverb/data bundle, 'show package contents'. Don't blow yer •••• up in there!

5 for left
5 for center
5 or right

probably MATRIX of the 5 as defined be input panning and output channels.

[michkhol]

One could do a little experiment (cannot do it myself obviously). Put a stereo IR into the ProVerb, save it and see how it stores it. Technically there is no requirement that IRs should be stored as interleaved stereo files and DP used to store everything as split mono.

[wurliuchi]

One could do a little experiment (cannot do it myself obviously). Put a stereo IR into the ProVerb, save it and see how it stores it. Technically there is no requirement that IRs should be stored as interleaved stereo files and DP used to store everything as split mono.

An interleaved stereo wav file ends up as a split stereo file when saved in ProVerb. It will name it 00.wav and 01.wav .

Here is the NodeInfo_local.xml matrix info:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>


<NodeInfo>
<IRML ID="0000">
<Name>Center</Name>
<FileSet>
<Root>Audio</Root>
<File ID="0000">
<Path>proverb test.wav/00.wav</Path>
</File>
<File ID="1000">
<Path>proverb test.wav/01.wav</Path>
</File>
</FileSet>
<Matrix ID="0000" inputID="Mono" outputID="Mono">
<Name>Left</Name>
<Response inputID="C" outputID="C" fileID="0000"/>
</Matrix>
<Matrix ID="1000" inputID="Mono" outputID="Mono">
<Name>Right</Name>
<Response inputID="C" outputID="C" fileID="1000"/>
</Matrix>
</IRML>
<IRML ID="1000">
<Name>Matrix</Name>
<FileSet>
<Root>Audio</Root>
<File ID="0000">
<Path>proverb test.wav/00.wav</Path>
</File>
<File ID="1000">
<Path>proverb test.wav/01.wav</Path>
</File>
</FileSet>
<Matrix ID="0000" inputID="Mono" outputID="Stereo">
<Name>Center</Name>
<Response inputID="C" outputID="L" fileID="0000"/>
<Response inputID="C" outputID="R" fileID="1000"/>
</Matrix>
</IRML>
<IRML ID="2000">
<Name>Gang</Name>
<FileSet>
<Root>Audio</Root>
<File ID="0000">
<Path>proverb test.wav/00.wav</Path>
</File>
<File ID="1000">
<Path>proverb test.wav/01.wav</Path>
</File>
</FileSet>
<Matrix ID="0000" inputID="Stereo" outputID="Stereo">
<Name>Gang</Name>
<Response inputID="L" outputID="L" fileID="0000"/>
<Response inputID="R" outputID="R" fileID="1000"/>
</Matrix>
</IRML>
</NodeInfo>

[genamusic]

Hi!
Think about how a convolution reverb is working: an impulse i sent through a room and the response is recorded. After that, the recorded sound minus the original sound gives you the pure impulse response. When you send a sound through the convolution reverb, the impulse response of the room is added to the signal. So if you for example have a stereo reverb and you send a stereo recorded piano to the reverb bus, you will send to different signals to the reverb plug-in. Now the convolution reverb adds the impulse response on the left and the right signal and as a result of course you will get two different reverb sounds on left and right. [b]It's the same like a normal reverb plug-in, which also uses the same algorythm on left and right.[/b] The output of the reverb always depends on what input it gets. The different impulse responses just tell you if they where recorded in the center, left or right in a room. Hope this helps you!
Greetz Gena

[Armageddon]

An interleaved stereo wav file ends up as a split stereo file when saved in ProVerb. It will name it 00.wav and 01.wav .

But it is possible to load a stereo impulse into Pro Verb? You can see a left and right impulse together in the impulse screen when they're loaded up, or just one side or the other?

My question about a stereo instance of Pro Verb is: how is a mono impulse affecting two sides of a stereo signal differently? You may still hear your input stereo sound along with Pro Verb's return, but that's not stereo reverb (i.e. - a sampled or digital recreation of stereo space), it's a stereo signal going through what is ultimately the recreation of a mono space. Of course you'll hear a difference on the left and right sides of a return, a stereo or panned mono signal is feeding more to one side or the other, but I'm not clear on how you're hearing differentiation on the reverb itself, since it's working from one impulse. Most convolution reverbs, such as Waves IR and Altiverb, load up a stereo impulse or several correlating impulses (left, right, center, etc.) simultaneously to simulate/recreate a space in stereo or surround (think: recording the "room" from a drum kit, using two mics to capture both sides of the room), and most digital reverbs do this by either programming accordingly for the right and left sides of its output or through other means, like chorusing effects.

Let me try and put this another way: most orchestras rely on capturing the ambient sounds of whatever hall they're recording in in lieu of adding reverb through effects. In order to achieve this, they mic it from several locations a decent distance from the actual sound (in a church, for example, they might mic it from the center pew and from the left and right walls ... sound familiar?). They don't do this with one microphone, they do it with several at the same time, to capture the full stereo (or surround) image of that room. Doing it with one microphone would capture the ambience from that one spot, but it's not stereo, and it doesn't capture the honest stereo response of that room, it's just capturing part of it.

[EMRR]

If I pan a mono source in a stereo send feeding a center loaded Proverb instance, and listen to the 100% wet/0%dry return with no dry mono source otherwise returning, I hear movement of source within a stereo reverberation spread.

Again, no dry signal present. Only reverb return. 100% wet/0%dry means that no dry signal is allowed to pass from the input of the plug to the output. The dry signal would come from the track channel, and the channel's fader is down in my test, with the 'pre fader' send option enabled. What you see loaded in the screen does not match the names of most of the selections, and there's no reason to assume the screen labeling is full disclosure truth. I see no reason to assume, or evidence to suggest, there's only a mono impulse loading. I hear a clearly differentiated left of room stereo perspective when 'left' is chosen. The only place I get a mono perspective is with a mono to mono instance. In that case, if you select any room/center/ you have the additional choice of left or right. Choose room/right you have the additional choice of left or right in a submenu. Mono instance, rooms/small/bright/right/right. That alone implies dropping of one side of a stereo IR to manage pure mono.

Five IR's for any center selection.
Five IR's for any left selection.
Five IR's for any right selection.

[wurliuchi]

I hear a stereo return. If you study the xml matrix file above, it lays out the routing and assignments.

[Armageddon]

I hear a stereo return. If you study the xml matrix file above, it lays out the routing and assignments.

Sorry, my question was, did both of your test impulses, left and right, actually load up into one stereo instance of Pro Verb at the same time (even though they were split into two files), and, if so, could you actually see both impulses in the impulse window inside Pro Verb's GUI as a stereo impulse?

To EMRR - based on your above post, I checked out DP 6.02 and opened a mono instance of Pro Verb, having never done so before (I've only ever looked at the stereo version, in the interest of using Pro Verb as a possible main bus 'verb). Sure enough, as you said, the Left, Right and Center selections for every room, hall and plate are further sub-divided into left and right impulses (only in a mono instance, mind you; in the stereo version, you only get the Left, Right and Center without the extra l/r sub-menus). This indeed seems to signify that the impulses provided in the stereo version are actually stereo, regardless of how they appear.

I think a lot of this confusion (for me, anyway) goes back to the nature of Pro Verb's setup -- "Left, Right and Center" sound like mono placements, not stereo ones (for example, in Altiverb, you load up a "Concert Hall" preset and you get both stereo impulses of the concert hall and the ability to pan between them in a stereo space, if that's what you want to do). You see one impulse in the impulse window, not two. There's no presets to demonstrate the practical abilities of the plug to both help you understand its parameters or get you started on your own user presets. DP's literature on the subject is woefully thin, so we're left to debate what certain functions of the plug even are. I certainly wasn't expecting a convolution reverb as comprehensive as a plug that costs roughly the same amount as a brand-new copy of DP 6, but I'll say it again: Pro Verb just feels extremely unfinished.

[wurliuchi]

I hear a stereo return. If you study the xml matrix file above, it lays out the routing and assignments.

Sorry, my question was, did both of your test impulses, left and right, actually load up into one stereo instance of Pro Verb at the same time (even though they were split into two files), and, if so, could you actually see both impulses in the impulse window inside Pro Verb's GUI as a stereo impulse?

Oh, sorry. Yes both sides load up, but you only see the left side in the display.

You can test all this by making a three-second interleaved stereo soundbite with, for example, a guitar hard left and a piano hard right. Drag that soundbite into ProVerb and copy it to Share in the menu. This will make two mono instances (00 and 01) in Proverbs share folder. Switch to any other IR and then select the IR you just made from the share menu. When you route signal through Proverb, you will hear guitar on the left and the piano on the right.