New User, New Studio Facility, Digidesign vs MOTU

[LightStorm]

Hello everyone, my name is Matt, and this is my first post. I have been recording for a while now, and I own a studio where I have recently built a new facility. I am currently a Pro Tools user and I'm in the process of outfitting my new Studio. The purpose of this post is two fold. First I would like to congratulate MOTU and one rep in particular, but I'm unsure as to the guidelines of posting here, so I will refrain from specifying any names, but the gentleman I spoke with was exceptionally helpful. I am in the midst of a predicament of grand proportions; I am undecided as to what direction I should take with my DAW.
Option 1. HD based Pro Tools system w/ Accel cards
Option 2. HD192 or Apogee based Digital Performer system w/ several 3rd party DSP cards, i.e. UAD-1, PowerCore, even Waves APA-44's
Anyway back to the first part, this one particular rep at MOTU called around several distributors of his own accord near my location, and after a few calls arranged for one of them to set up a full MOTU demo including HD192's and DP 4.6 on a G5 like the one I will be using, and what••™s better the store will have a Pro Tools HD system set up right beside it so I can A/B the systems. I must say I have never had a rep do this for me, and I am confident that Digidesign would never go to the trouble that this man did so a (potential) client and current user of the competition, could test their system against the competition. Even more impressive this store did not have all of the items needed to complete the task, so he arranged for them to be shipped to the store, needless to say I'm looking forward to this occasion with much anticipation. Chalk 1 up to MOTU! The other part of this post is to ask everyone who cares to respond, what his or her suggestions might be. The bulk of my business is comprised primarily of music recording, consisting of gospel groups & country gospel, also bluegrass and a large amount of contemporary Christian artist. I have also recently been doing a fair amount of music videos and some post work for local/regional video & film companies. I have a surprisingly large amount of (excuse me when I say this) but ignorant clients whose first words are "you got Pro Tools".
They fail to be concerned with the "little" things such as converters, mics, pre-amps, & oh, I almost forgot EARS! I just love how they overlook these things all for a name. So I am concerned about the "name" issue as to how it will affect my marketing ability, but honestly I don't think I care anymore, I'm just tired of the Digidesign "collective" mentality.
The bottom line is if I can create sonically pleasing and professional results I'll record with a potato. So in closing, any thoughts concerning what direction to take, being I have never used anything but Pro Tools, will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance, and I did not mean for this to be an opportunity to bash Digi, but I am truly trying to be objective with my decision making process.

P.S If I decide to go with MOTU & DP I can't seem to fine a larger format console to replace my Digidesign unit. Any thoughts on this would be nice as well.

[Schweats]

Matt,
If you already have Pro Tools and are intimately familiar with it, simply add DP ! Don't make it an either/or••¦ If you decide to choose DP
exclusively and a client stills asks if you have Pro Tools , uh, the answer is still yes.
I'm sure you're aware of this, but if not ••¦ Never tell a client that you don't have piece of equip••¦ unless of course it's an SSL or Neve console
or something that is so physically large that you can't rent one pronto to
accomodate them. I dunno... maybe you already have one of those (?)
I'm a 17year user of Motu software and I am somewhat familiar with PT
and the biggest diff , to my knowledge is DP's unsurpassed MIDI rec/edit/
processing functionality. I'm more of a composer/songwriter than a
audio engineer and I'm just now learning in depth the audio portion and how it intertwines with MIDI. I own no expensive mics , mic-pre's or a/d converters, though they are on my list of must buys, so,
it would be best if the audio engineer types jump in and sing the praises
of DP's power. HTH Schweats

[chrispick]

I think that, if possession of PT is core and essential to your future marketing plans, then step up to PT HD. Try to gauge that decision by your existing clients needs. If, for them, it's PT or the highway, then go PT.

Or, if learning new software is difficult for you, stick with what you already know and build on that. After all, it's not just the tools that matter; it's the tools and your experienced ability with them.

If the above doesn't hold, then go with the least expensive, highest quality, most modular option you can afford. If that's DP, then there you go.

FWIW: People ask me all the time if I use Protools. I tell them, "No, I researched and found something better, Digital Performer. You know, the app people like Danny Elfman and Hans Zimmer use." The question never arises again. Of course, I sell myself as a composer/songwriter, so these particular name-drops are apt. If you sell yourself as a producer or engineer, use the names of some famous, admired folk who use DP that way.

One thing to note: If you score stuff for tv or film, DP has a leg up there right now, I think. And its current version integrates with Quicktime pretty well.

Myself, if I were building a boutique company, I'd go with DP and Apogee. But then, I don't record bands; I record me.

[pcm]

If you are running a commercial operaton, and plan on interfacing with lots of other studios, producers, and musicians with systems at home, the choice is obvious, buy an HD system. To do less would be shooting yourself in the foot. Once you run DP on an HD system, you'll also realize that that is also your best DP option. DP is a freakin monster on HD hardware. Truly the best of both worlds.

Running DP on MOTU hardware is a perfectly viable option if your projects start and stay in house. But running a pro studio without HD would be like not owning a 2" machine throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Anyone in the pro world knows that this is beyond debate. So, your decision is at least partly based on how far you intend to go...

[fokof]

So I am concerned about the "name" issue as to how it will affect my marketing ability, but honestly I don't think I care anymore, I'm just tired of the Digidesign "collective" mentality.
The bottom line is if I can create sonically pleasing and professional results I'll record with a potato.

When somebody ask me if I use Protools I say : Yes , it's "professional tools"

I'm really against any monopoly ( Avid, microsoft ) That's part of the reason I chose to go with MOTU product , I don't work less because of that. We have to do our part to keep the market alive , look what happened with windoz....

If you figure out how to do it with a potato , I'm in !

[Fibes]

If you are running a commercial operaton, and plan on interfacing with lots of other studios, producers, and musicians with systems at home, the choice is obvious, buy an HD system. To do less would be shooting yourself in the foot. Once you run DP on an HD system, you'll also realize that that is also your best DP option. DP is a freakin monster on HD hardware. Truly the best of both worlds.

Running DP on MOTU hardware is a perfectly viable option if your projects start and stay in house. But running a pro studio without HD would be like not owning a 2" machine throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Anyone in the pro world knows that this is beyond debate. So, your decision is at least partly based on how far you intend to go...

Well put but some of us are willing to endure a little translation pain (I don't expect my PT clients to do it) so that we are not linked to "the man." I look at PTHD more like a 3324 than a 2" machine but that's another debate entirely.

So if you want universal compatability with the pro world get PT and DP. if you are going to do a lot of inhouse stuff and prefer DP buy DP and an 002 rack with some Apogee lightpipe and pick and choose.

Or you could be like me and deal with AAF, merging files and building stuff from a friends Mbox when it's required. I'm pro but i just can't buy into the man. If i was in LA the tune would be much different.

[dtobocman]

Just be aware that keeping current with Pro Tools software versions will eventually mean having to buy the next round of new Digidesign hardware. If you're a competitive Pro Tools studio, you cannot be stuck in version 6 if the rest of the professional world has moved to version 7. History shows that Digidesign REQUIRES you to spend major bucks on hardware every few years just to remain current with their software.

If you're running a project studio, this bit of fact is not very important. If you are running a professional, competitive PT studio, it is of utmost importance.

[kwiz]

If you are running a commercial operaton, and plan on interfacing with lots of other studios, producers, and musicians with systems at home, the choice is obvious, buy an HD system. To do less would be shooting yourself in the foot. Once you run DP on an HD system, you'll also realize that that is also your best DP option. DP is a freakin monster on HD hardware. Truly the best of both worlds.

Running DP on MOTU hardware is a perfectly viable option if your projects start and stay in house. But running a pro studio without HD would be like not owning a 2" machine throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Anyone in the pro world knows that this is beyond debate. So, your decision is at least partly based on how far you intend to go...

I agree with PCM, Fibes and dtobocman posts. Here's my take. DP running on an HD system is very cool but IMHO is also a deep money pit. Running a PRO studio is a money pit in general and the trick to decrease your overhead is to keep the pit as shallow as possible. If you're looking for a large format console as well, you might want to consider focusing on getting converters that are superior to MOTU's and DIGIDESIGN's like Apogee AD/DA 16x or the new a couple of Aurora 16's. You can mix in stems or to as many in's that your console will allow and avoid the dreaded "in the box" mix.
Like Fibes said you can get a 002 box and transfer/convert "outside" PT sessions without having to shell out more $$$ for an HD system and when clients ask for PT you'll have it. I do this all the time and I just have an Mbox with the latest PT software. If you are doing music videos and need to sync to picture, DP is by far your best choice. The UAD-1 card is incredible and the Multiband limiter that will be released in the next update is killer! I like Waves but I think thier plugins are over priced especially the TDM versions. (which you would need if you got PTHD)

Good luck.

[MT]

I agree with the 'both' route, based on the two studios I use here in town that do a lot of local and label work. They both have the traditional console/2" tape setup and for the "PT crowd", the Digi002 with Apogees for conversion. This allows them to accommodate a wide variety of artists/groups. Both studios were well established and then added the PT/Converter rigs in order to keep the PT people from going elsewhere.

Why not go with a good console and good converters with PT and DP on the G5? I guess you don't have the control surface flexibility of the HD system, but at least you can handle a wider range of clients? Plus, you have the summing advantage of a console (IMHO) and excellent converters for final mixing to a Masterlink or whatever you use to print the final mix.

Nice to have the budget for choices though. Good luck with the new setup.

MT

[Delusion]

I was/am a pro tools user for 5 years now. I feel that pro tools is an excellent audio editor, but a ho-hum app for MIDI and compsing at best....maybe PT7 is a step in the right direction....we'll see.

Bottom line on the above subject is that DP is much better at audio then PT is at MIDI and picture scoring.

The thing that burns me about Digi Design is that everything is an add-on and costs more money....not to mention the constant upgrades and EXTREMELY finiky hardware (mobo chipsets, video card, etc...) compatibility on the LE side. And according to Digi, it's always someone else fault....as if everyone should make thier hardware work with Digi products as opposed to Digi making there products work with the hardware that is out there. Don't get me wrong, some compatibility issues are bound to pop up (especially in the PC world), but Digi is just simply over the top on that one....

One more rant on the constant upgrade thing. I realize that your talking HD, but I'm just using the following as an example:

Mbox 2. What the hell is this thing? Take a regular old mbox, add MIDI ports that should of been on the original, and keep it regular old usb that was already recognized as an poor interface when the original one was released (ever try to play softsynths realtime on one?)

So here is what's going to probably happen with that situation. All original mbox owners will get to use PT 7.0 if they pay for the upgrade. Chances are by say 7.4 the original m-box will go the way of the 001 and no longer be supported forcing everybody to "upgrade" to the m-box 2, which is, as previously mentioned, for the most part, the same thing in a new chasis.

That being said, I have a set-up as the others suggested. DP as main DAW, and PTLE on call incase I get one of those "do you have pro tools? customers" you were talking about....you know, now that I think about it, maybe you could just run DP for them too....they probably wouldn't know the difference. Kind of like the average computer consumer that goes into the local best buy and demands a computer that is latest buzzword equipped even though they have NOOO idea what it means or does....anybody remember when it was Intel Pentium or nothing on the PC side. Luckily AMD has finally broke down that barrier.

Pro Tools is like the above Intel Pentium situation. What happened there was AMD started producing faster, better chips and they cost much less on top of that. It took awhile, but people finally started to realize this and now Intel doesn't have the monopoly it once had.

Hopefully in say the next 5 years, OMF/AAF will have all of the bugs worked out and sessions will be able to be worked on in the DAW of your choice. At that point why would anybody buy Pro Tools when you can get a more capable app that runs on hardware of your choosing for less money....and buy from a company that listens to and values it's customers.

Digi only wants your money and isn't nearly concerned if you're happy with their product....and, you're right, Digi would NEVER do what the MOTU rep has arranged for you....not in a million years.

[Delusion]

By the way, I swear I'm not as bitter as my last post would suggest...LOL