Sonoma 14.4

Macintosh software/hardware discussion and troubleshooting

Moderator: James Steele

User avatar
bayswater
Posts: 11971
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:06 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Vancouver

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by bayswater »

James Steele wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:55 pm Again, it may be wishful thinking but I sure wish Apple could devise a way to let us revert to a previous OS version as painlessly as possible. I installed 14.4 because I’m not recording others professionally. If I was, I wouldn’t have done it, of course. It was just sheer luck that because I had an M1 Mac that I dodged this bullet.

I’ve never seen a processor-specific issue like this before. I guess the takeaway is that developers need to test on M2/M3 machines as well. It also makes me wonder about Apple’s beta testing. Is it possible Apple had ZERO beta testers with M2/M3 Macs doing audio work and owning some iLok-protected plug-ins?
I think that was only one developer who didn’t test on M2/3 but yes, that seems pretty obvious that you would test on the machines your customers use.

This morning there were reports that the last developer’s beta did not have all the bugs that are now being reported. If so, another flaw in the QA process, and another reason to wait a few days after any OS update on anything.
2018 Mini i7 32G 10.14.6, DP 11.3, Mixbus 9, Logic 10.5, Scarlett 18i8
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21249
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by James Steele »

bayswater wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:28 am
James Steele wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:55 pm Again, it may be wishful thinking but I sure wish Apple could devise a way to let us revert to a previous OS version as painlessly as possible. I installed 14.4 because I’m not recording others professionally. If I was, I wouldn’t have done it, of course. It was just sheer luck that because I had an M1 Mac that I dodged this bullet.

I’ve never seen a processor-specific issue like this before. I guess the takeaway is that developers need to test on M2/M3 machines as well. It also makes me wonder about Apple’s beta testing. Is it possible Apple had ZERO beta testers with M2/M3 Macs doing audio work and owning some iLok-protected plug-ins?
I think that was only one developer who didn’t test on M2/3 but yes, that seems pretty obvious that you would test on the machines your customers use.

This morning there were reports that the last developer’s beta did not have all the bugs that are now being reported. If so, another flaw in the QA process, and another reason to wait a few days after any OS update on anything.
Oh yeah... mea culpa! Guilty as charged. As I said, normally I would dive into an OS update like that, but a) I'm not at the critical stage of any project right now, b) I was desperate to find a solution to an issue I was having with DP 11.31, Console 1, and Sonoma 14.3.1. I was hoping 14.4 would fix it. Wrong. And, c) I'm on an M1 so I lucked out and dodge the problem anyway.

Again, yes... in hindsight the developer quoted in the article should have tested on M2 and M3 as well as Intel and M1, but I've never seen an issue like that before where something breaks like that on one CPU variant but not the other. I can't blame them for thinking that if it was working on Intel and on Apple Silicon, that it would break on a different variation of Apple Silicon. Just never saw that before. As a Mac user, I always thought that was something the Windows people dealt with AMD, Intel, Ryzen and whatever. You'd really think that if you tested on Intel and Apple Silicon your bases would be covered. Now we know.

Fortunately for me on this older M1 I'm going along okay, however still waiting for Apple to fix the graphic glitch that's affecting Console 1. Namely, the on screen RTA display and controls in the On Screen Display app get sluggish in DP unless you close all windows except the Track Overview. Royal PITA. Apple kinda needs to get their act together. Seems like a company that's valued at 2.6 TRILLION DOLLARS, could afford to have a bit more robust QC. Seems like they should understand that creatives make up an important portion of their user base, so a company with that much money could afford to have a systems in house that mimic a typical DAW setup with various current common hardware peripherals and third party plugins. Sigh... I dunno.

Lastly, I really do think it would be a selling point if Apple could devise a system to make rolling back macOS to an earlier version easier—especially if their testing is going to be sloppy or they just can't keep up with it. I understand they have all this security now, but Apple taking away the ability to make bootable backup (via apps like Carbon Copy Cloner and Super Duper) kinda sucks... big time.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.5 Public Beta, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4650
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by stubbsonic »

Apple Support Person: "What OS are you using? Go to the Apple Menu..."

Me: "Yea, I know how to open 'about this mac'; I'm running last year's OS."

Apple Support Person: "Well, you might try updating your OS to fix your issue."

Me: "Well, first of all, updating my OS CAUSED this problem; software I use is at risk of not working with the new OS, and the ground will open revealing some new level of fresh hell..., so I must decide how much I'm loving my life before I make that leap."

Apple Support Person: "... ... ... I understand."

..... aaaand scene.

Last night, working on MIDI tracks in DP, chose Delete track, and DP just vanished. It did generate a crash report. Anymore, I just sigh. But I sigh constantly now.

My wife: "You ok, there big guy?"
Me: "sigh...."
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
User avatar
cuttime
Posts: 4305
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by cuttime »

828x MacOS 13.6.6 M1 Studio Max 1TB 64G DP11.31
User avatar
stubbsonic
Posts: 4650
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Contact:

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by stubbsonic »

Yea, so far Sonoma has been a steaming hot mess for me.
M1 MBP; OS 12, FF800, DP 11.3, Kontakt 7, Reaktor 6, PC3K7, K2661S, iPad6, Godin XTSA, Two Ibanez 5 string basses (1 fretted, 1 fretless), FM3, SY-1000, etc.

http://www.jonstubbsmusic.com
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15235
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by mikehalloran »

but Apple taking away the ability to make bootable backup (via apps like Carbon Copy Cloner and Super Duper) kinda sucks... big time.
Cloneware was always an API over Disk Utility and now Time Machine since Sierra. Those who swear they never use TM don’t like to be told this. Anyway, DU hasn’t been able to make a bootable clone for years and was never able to make a Recovery Partition. None of this prevents the user from modifying the Security settings and installing the macOS onto an external drive but cloneware cannot do that for you. Then there’s the fact that many apps will only function on the System drive and won’t on a bootable external (the MOTU Audio Drivers are an example).
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4.1, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21249
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by James Steele »

mikehalloran wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:24 pm
but Apple taking away the ability to make bootable backup (via apps like Carbon Copy Cloner and Super Duper) kinda sucks... big time.
Cloneware was always an API over Disk Utility and now Time Machine since Sierra. Those who swear they never use TM don’t like to be told this. Anyway, DU hasn’t been able to make a bootable clone for years and was never able to make a Recovery Partition. None of this prevents the user from modifying the Security settings and installing the macOS onto an external drive but cloneware cannot do that for you. Then there’s the fact that many apps will only function on the System drive and won’t on a bootable external (the MOTU Audio Drivers are an example).
Oh yeah... I understand that it was an API over Disk Utility, etc. I'm just bemoaning the fact that once upon a time it was possible to make a bootable disk image of your boot drive. I may not have all the technical details just right, but what I'm saying is it seemed as if it used to be a lot easier to downgrade to an earlier OS version. Am I remembering that incorrectly?
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.5 Public Beta, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21249
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by James Steele »

One more thing: I'm NOT a software or hardware engineer. That's not my job or my expertise. But I am a consumer of computer products and IF there is a way possibly, I would sure love it if Apple could devise a way, either make it an option in System Settings, that APFS snapshots could backup and restore the OS that was in use at the time it was made. Imagine what a wonderful world (cue Louis Armstrong) it would be if M2/M3 Mac owners, upon discovering Sonoma 14.4 messed up their ability to use certain plug-ins, they could have simply restored to 14.3.1 from an APFS snapshot.

Again... DISCLAIMER... there are probably very good reasons and daunting technical challenges why this isn't possible, and perhaps the casual Mac user isn't clamoring for this. Just saying that a company that is as financially set as Apple could possibly afford to make this easier.

In the meantime, I guess I should really sit down and make a Word Doc or something that would clearly outline the safe steps, simply and in order (so I don't screw something up) in order to do a full restore to an earlier OS. It may be that before I upgrade an OS I figure out how to make a bootable USB installer thumb drive for that OS?

Again... I don't know, but I just know that doing a full reversion to an earlier OS seems very daunting and the reason why it *seems* many Mac users would rather stand pat waiting desperately for Apple to push out a hotfix than attempt that. I know I had to do it once when Kontakt 7.6.0 (I think that was the screwed up version) hosed my system and I tried everything I could think of prior to the "nuclear option."

It was sheer luck that my M1 machine didn't suffer the problems of the M2/M3, although I'm still plagued by an issue with Console 1 that requires a Sonoma fix from Apple.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.5 Public Beta, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
cuttime
Posts: 4305
Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by cuttime »

I imagine there is some blood on the floor at Apple over this. From the reading I've been doing, it seems that these bugs were not present in the beta releases. How does something get so screwed up between beta and the SR?
828x MacOS 13.6.6 M1 Studio Max 1TB 64G DP11.31
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21249
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by James Steele »

cuttime wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:46 pm I imagine there is some blood on the floor at Apple over this. From the reading I've been doing, it seems that these bugs were not present in the beta releases. How does something get so screwed up between beta and the SR?
I sure don't know. I have to wonder if it's just something so simple and unglamorous as the fact that some engineer made a few last minute tweaks and they just never tested some things on M2/M3? From what I understand most of these issues only affect those processors. M1 users like myself and mostly unaffected.

My big problem is a graphics glitch that makes using Console 1 difficult and that's going to require a fix from Apple. It's one thing of an app has a bug, but OSes require a lot of scrutiny as it can affect so many things. Some OSes are just more stable than others. Reminds me why people hung on so long with Windows XP. It was about as bullet proof as you could get on that platform.
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.5 Public Beta, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
joelfriedman
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Washington, DC
Contact:

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by joelfriedman »

Well, there was this today. It’s a bad week for Apple. https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/0 ... mac-chips/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Joel Friedman
Web: http://www.joelfriedman.com
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/joelfriedman
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/joel-friedman/1b/7b2/8a9

iMacPro 2017 3.2 GHz, OS 13.6,3 32GB RAM, 4 1 TB HD's (boot, project, and samples), MOTU UltraLite MK4, Nektar Impact LX88
DP 11.3, MachFive 3.2, MX4 2.2, Ethno 2.01, Komplete 14 Ultimate (don't ask...), Sibelius Ultimate, Symphobia v. 1.06, assorted libraries...

MacBook Pro M1 16 GB RAM OS 13.6.3
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21249
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by James Steele »

joelfriedman wrote:Well, there was this today. It’s a bad week for Apple. https://arstechnica.com/security/2024/0 ... mac-chips/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A glimmer of hope from the article:
Readers should remember that whatever penalties result [from a software patch] will only be felt when affected software is performing specific cryptographic operations. For browsers and many other types of apps, the performance cost may not be noticeable.
I’m assuming this may not apply to audio software like DP, etc. However, I don’t know for sure, but I would like to know if plug-ins using iLok will be affected? That would obviously be VERY bad!
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.5 Public Beta, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
User avatar
joelfriedman
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:56 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Washington, DC
Contact:

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by joelfriedman »

Yeah James. Way above my pay grade, I have no idea if it refers to actually software that uses cryptography or if it’s some sort of internal process generally used for OS safety etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Joel Friedman
Web: http://www.joelfriedman.com
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/joelfriedman
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/joel-friedman/1b/7b2/8a9

iMacPro 2017 3.2 GHz, OS 13.6,3 32GB RAM, 4 1 TB HD's (boot, project, and samples), MOTU UltraLite MK4, Nektar Impact LX88
DP 11.3, MachFive 3.2, MX4 2.2, Ethno 2.01, Komplete 14 Ultimate (don't ask...), Sibelius Ultimate, Symphobia v. 1.06, assorted libraries...

MacBook Pro M1 16 GB RAM OS 13.6.3
User avatar
mikehalloran
Posts: 15235
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 5:08 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: Sillie Con Valley

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by mikehalloran »

Unlike some, I have not experienced the iLok issue in DP or Logic over 14.4.

Yesterday, while looking at something for another thread, I clicked on a file that opened Performer Lite 11.23, still the latest version. Every iLok protected plug-in and VI on my Mac was seeking to re-authorize and failing to do so. I was quitting and force-quitting PL and the iLok manager for nearly a half hour while my brain was screaming "just stoooooooop!" Finally, I held the power button on my Mac long enough to shut it down. On reboot, I was able to force-quit PL as it was starting before it triggered iLok and the madness began again.

The iOS and iPadOS 17.4.1 updates were released yesterday. No Sonoma 14.4.1 hot fix yet but it can't come too soon as far as I am concerned.
DP 11.31; 828mkII FW, micro lite, M4, MTP/AV USB Firmware 2.0.1
2023 Mac Studio M2 8TB, 192GB RAM, OS Sonoma 14.4.1, USB4 8TB external, M-Audio AIR 192|14, Mackie ProFxv3 6/10/12; 2012 MBPs Catalina, Mojave
IK-NI-Izotope-PSP-Garritan-Antares, LogicPro X, Finale 27.4, Dorico 5.2, Notion 6, Overture 5, TwistedWave, DSP-Q 5, SmartScore64 Pro, Toast 20 Pro
User avatar
James Steele
Site Administrator
Posts: 21249
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Primary DAW OS: MacOS
Location: San Diego, CA - U.S.A.
Contact:

Re: Sonoma 14.4

Post by James Steele »

mikehalloran wrote:No Sonoma 14.4.1 hot fix yet but it can't come too soon as far as I am concerned.
Word!!

Another article on the subject of the M-series exploit:

https://www.cultofmac.com/851053/hacker ... rocessors/
JamesSteeleProject.com | Facebook | Instagram | Twitter

Mac Studio M1 Max, 64GB/2TB, MacOS 14.5 Public Beta, DP 11.31, MOTU 828es, MOTU 24Ai, MOTU MIDI Express XT, UAD-2 TB3 Satellite OCTO, Console 1 Mk2, Avid S3, NI Komplete Kontrol S88 Mk2, Red Type B, Millennia HV-3C, Warm Audio WA-2A, AudioScape 76F, Dean guitars, Marshall amps, etc., etc.!
Post Reply