Optimum Mastering Peak Level?

[Tidwells@aol.com]

For mastering my latest songs to MP3's, I set the peak Masterworks Limiter Level at -1.1 db, which was recommended by several people. Now that I'm going back to master to 24-bit WAV files which can then be converted to other formats, what is the consensus for the best level to set the limiter peak level to? I used to set it at -.1 db. Any reason to go lower?

Doug

[Phil O]

I can't tell you what is optimum, but I can say that -0.1 dB is most likely too high. The reason for this is that the Masterworks limiter probably indicates digital values exactly, whereas during D/A conversion the analog signal can go above that. For an explanation of this do some research on "true peak meters." Turns out that true peak is usually a little above digital peak.
I use Melda Productions Loudness Analyzer. It has a true peak meter. Ozone Maximixer also has a true peak option. I'm sure there are probably stand alone options as well.

I'm not and never have been a fan of the loudness wars. If it ain't loud enough, that's what the volume knob if for. So squeezing out every last fraction of a decibel is not in my work flow. I usually set my true peak values to -1dB to -1.5dB. That has worked for me but I don't know if it's "optimum."

Your friendly neighborhood Phil

[James Steele]

I have to say, the loudness thing is something that confuses me a bit these days as I was very involved in a live project for a while and wasn't keeping up with some of the changes. For example, I really need to read up on LUFS as that seems to be really important now. Different distribution platforms have various loudness requirements that need to be adhered to apparently. Sigh. I'm having to play some catch up in that area.

[Tidwells@aol.com]

Same here, James! The last time I was seriously mastering songs was for CD, and -.1 db seemed to work well.

Doug

[monkey man]

Doug, what Phil said is legit.

I remember a long time ago hearing something about inter-sample peaks. Don't ask me how that works but IIRC the consensus was to lower your "regular" peak level several dB.

Apparently the inter-sample peaks exiting a converter can be many dB higher.

[daniel.sneed]

IMOE, converting wav files to mp3 will clip if *true peaks* are higher than -0,5dB.

[dwilliams]

-0.2 with 8X oversampling and dithering on for the master bus I think. I don't know if MW can do that but there are many that can such as Fab Filter. I've never used a limiter on MP3 conversion, I just use the "Best" algorithm in Amadeus Pro. Maybe that means I'm doing it wrong? Honestly, I'm not doing too much MP3, mostly FLAC. I look forward to the death of MP3 but obviously it is here for a while.

[mikehalloran]

Doug, what Baysey said is legit.

I remember a long time ago hearing something about inter-sample peaks. Don't ask me how that works but IIRC the consensus was to lower your "regular" peak level several dB.

Apparently the inter-sample peaks exiting a converter can be many dB higher.

The MW Limiter has issues that make it unacceptable to some of us. Inter-sample peaks may be a contributing factor. In any case, if pushed too hard the MW Limiter distorts and I was able to demonstrate this to MOTU recently as three weeks ago.

The bx_limiter True Peak came to my rescue when I first noticed this nearly four years ago.
https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/products.html

You can try it for free. It goes on sale now and then, currently for $39.99 or as part of their subscription packages. It's also part of bx_masterdesk True Peak and bx_masterdesk Pro, both of which also go on sale now and then.

Plugin Alliance has introduced what they call their MEGA subscriptions. These give you access to everything; the price difference is how many permanent licenses you get every year. I would certainly include one of their True Peak limiters.
https://www.plugin-alliance.com/en/prod ... early.html

I no longer have a PA subscription, having used Loyalty Vouchers to purchase permanent licenses for the plugs I use most. I'd consider one of the Mega bundles, however, if I saw anything new that I wanted.

[mikehalloran]

I don't convert .mp3 in Digital Performer. Compared to TwistedWave, it takes forever.

I did the math and posted it recently. There are over 600 variations when it comes to bit depth and quality when it comes to mp3 conversion. I now do VBR (variable bit rate) Joint Stereo, Best Quality and everyone is happy. I don't hear a difference between VBR and 320 and neither do any of my clients. VBR does result in a smaller file size.

[James Steele]

Hey Mike… do you mean 128 or 192 VBR and 320 CBR?

[mikehalloran]

Hey Mike… do you mean 128 or 192 VBR and 320 CBR?

[James Steele]

Hey Mike… do you mean 128 or 192 VBR and 320 CBR?

Yeah I guess I’m dense. So what you’re saying is that people don’t hear the difference between a 320 variable bit rate file or a 320 constant bit rate file?

[daniel.sneed]

Mostly I do not convert inside DP. I use Audiofinder instead (which uses lame encoder, too).

If you're in doubt, just make a test with say a -0,3dB wav file, convert to mp3 and look at peak level : probably -0db, which means clipping to me.
Second test with a -0,5dB wav file, convert to mp3 and look at peak level : probably fine.

BTW, when I need mp3, I go with 192VBR high quality.
And, yes, I do hear a difference between these mp3 and original wav files, but only when listening thru my studio monitors (jbl4326+sub), and nowhere else. And a very very slight one, in top-high frequencies, generally called *air*.

[monkey man]

I use LAME from within Audacity (free).

320 CBR
Normal Stereo

Joint Stereo was shown years ago to have imaging problems.

Doug, what Baysey said is legit.

I remember a long time ago hearing something about inter-sample peaks. Don't ask me how that works but IIRC the consensus was to lower your "regular" peak level several dB.

Apparently the inter-sample peaks exiting a converter can be many dB higher.

The MW Limiter has issues that make it unacceptable to some of us. Inter-sample peaks may be a contributing factor. In any case, if pushed too hard the MW Limiter distorts and I was able to demonstrate this to MOTU recently as three weeks ago.

The bx_limiter True Peak came to my rescue when I first noticed this nearly four years ago.

I don't think the "True Peak" version of bx_limiter's been out that long Mike.

Nevertheless, I have it. Thank you brother.

[mikehalloran]

I use LAME from within Audacity (free).

320 CBR
Normal Stereo

Joint Stereo was shown years ago to have imaging problems.
...

Although I don't hear problems with Joint Stereo anymore (2003 was different), I agree that normal is probably better. Unfortunately, I deal with too many Luddites who only know email to transfer files. JS gives a smaller file size.

Here's a good article on that.
Joint Stereo

I don't think the "True Peak" version of bx_limiter's been out that long Mike.

Nevertheless, I have it. Thank you brother.

You're right. I bought it in 2021, not 2020. My steel trap of a mind has become a rusty sieve with age.