No MOTU MIDI timepiece in MIDI studio...

[James Steele]

Wow... that's interesting! Let me as you this. In ClockWorks if you, for example, mute all Sysex on a specific port on the MTP/AV and close ClockWorks and reopen it, is that muting still reflected in Clockworks? I had it happen to me where it appeared settings like that weren't "sticking" in my MTP/AV but it might have just been that the interface as taking the change, but ClockWorks app wasn't showing it after the change was made.

[CharlzS]

Wow... that's interesting! Let me as you this. In ClockWorks if you, for example, mute all Sysex on a specific port on the MTP/AV and close ClockWorks and reopen it, is that muting still reflected in Clockworks? I had it happen to me where it appeared settings like that weren't "sticking" in my MTP/AV but it might have just been that the interface as taking the change, but ClockWorks app wasn't showing it after the change was made.

I muted all the sysex on the inputs and the setting persisted with a close and open of Clockworks. I also shut down and restarted both computer and MTP AV and the sysex setting still held in Clockworks. The MB Air is an amazing little box.

[mikehalloran]

On a clean install of Sonoma 14.2.1 the MTP AV does work.

I grabbed an old SATA III, wiped it clean and migrated my Network Settings only during the install. Yep, it worked for me, too.

MOTU USB MIDI Security Sonoma.jpg (451.03 KiB) Viewed 789 times

If it's not working when updating/upgrading to Sonoma, there's most likely some previous baggage getting in the way.

Pretty certain that's been confirmed.

I don't want to draw any more conclusions until my experiment has run that should answer a few questions. Waiting on that FedEx truck…

[James Steele]

Well this is good news. I guess I'll hang on to my MTP/AV a bit longer. It can stay in the boneyard. I still should try to unload my HD192 and 24I/O and 424 card... but I can't imagine I'll get much.

[mikehalloran]

Since the micro lite is backordered everywhere, I went looking for used. I found a pair that were unregistered for a very good price with the rack mount and connecting hardware so I pulled the trigger figuring I can sell the spare and hardware or even both.

The Experiment

Since my MTP AV worked over a clean install over Sonoma on a remote drive, I suspected that a) the micro lite wouldn't when hooked up and b) when I got the micro lite working, the MTP would, too. The FedEx truck arrived yesterday so I got into it this morning. Let's see:

I got a reply from Matt … he said to trash these files:

/Applications/ClockWorks.app
/Applications/MOTU USB MIDI System Extension.app
/Library/Audio/MIDI Drivers/MOTU USB MIDI Driver.plugin
/Library/Audio/MIDI Drivers/MOTU MIDI Driver.plugin
/Library/LaunchDaemons/com.motu.driver.usbmidi.dextproxy.launchd.plist
/Library/Application Support/MOTU/MIDI (folder)
/Library/Extensions/MOTU\ MIDI\ Driver.kext

"Note: There may be some items that are not on your machine listed above. That's ok, just ignore it if you don't see one, and move on."

Then check Activity Monitor to make sure no MOTU process is happening, and if so, kill it. Clear trash, restart, and reinstall the MIDI driver.

Although I had done that, it didn't do what I needed so I registered one of the units and placed a Support call.

I spoke w/ Matt and not all of those needed to be trashed—but those that I found, I did. In addition, I found an old Zoom MIDI driver that must have been 20 years old so it went as well. When going through the settings, this did not appear in the Activity Monitor with the unit connected — that appears to be the root of the problem:

Activity Monitor.png (44.93 KiB) Viewed 691 times

When I reinstalled the MOTU MIDI driver, the USB MIDI Extension notice popped up. I wanted to allow it before rebooting but Matt told me to reboot first, so I did. Wondering if that was my mistake the other times.

After rebooting, I went to Privacy & Security, allowed the extension, then opened Login Items and had to re-enable MOTU.

Login Items MOTU.png (68.75 KiB) Viewed 691 times

I rebooted again and it appeared in Audio MIDI Setup.app — along with my MTP AV USB and the com.motu.driver.USBMidiDext appeared in Activity Monitor as it should. This process had disabled my 828mkII but reinstalling that driver brought everything to life.

MOTU MIDI Success 1-22-2024.png (142.11 KiB) Viewed 691 times

I'll decide later whether or not to keep one on those micro lites or the MTV AV USB. I can unregister the new (to me) unit if I want so that a buyer can register it. MOTU still allows this.

Declaring Victory for now.

[mikehalloran]

updating to Sonoma 14.3 had no effect—everything works.

Likewise, I installed onto my wife's MBAir M1. It had DP installed but no MOTU MIDI or Audio drivers. After going through all the Security steps and multiple reboots, it worked.

Again, though MOTU can get the macOS 11–13 drivers working over Sonoma, that's not the same as releasing a Sonoma compatible driver.

MOTU has published that firmware updates for many units are Sonoma compatible including the MIDI Express XT (USB).

I have no doubt that the issue is making an installer that "just works". Likewise, I'm pretty confident that, when this happens, the MTP AV USB will likewise be recognized if it has the 2.0.1 firmware and 1.34 USB controller chips.

It annoys me to no end that they won't support the MTP/AV. There is no chance I will buy one of their XT express because of that. ...

I'm sorry but that's an unreasonable expectation. MOTU sold the last pair of firmware/usb upgrade chips in 2012 (to me).
There's also the issue of SMPTE. The MTP AV does not support all of the current standards and never will. The MIDI Express XT (USB) and micro express (USB) have upgradeable firmware (those units that don't support SMPTE do not). Of course MOTU can't still support it. I don't like the business decision they made but I certainly understand it.

Conclusion:

Lack of SMPTE is why I will unregister and sell this micro lite pair. If I need one of the newer SMPTE protocols, then I will get a MIDI Express XT (USB) or micro express (USB) and sell this ancient MTP AV USB. Yea, I know my 828mkII supports SMPTE but it has the same restriction as the MTP AV and only one MIDI port,

I really did not want to invest the time and money to figure this out but I learned a few things and will turn a small profit when I sell this gear.

Whew!

[James Steele]

updating to Sonoma 14.3 had no effect—everything works.

Same here. Overall, I've been pleasantly surprised by my Sonoma experience. That said, I'd never recommend it to others without a caveat to cover my butt as I don't want someone blaming me if something goes wrong. I follow other forums and see that many people are still holding back on Ventura, but I don't think that's necessary unless perhaps you have a very specific issue... at least it hasn't been for me. I could be totally wrong, but my operating theory is that Apple is continuing to make tweaks to the OS to optimize performance for what is still a relatively new architecture (and sea change) and thus the OSes should actually improve performance. On the other hand, if I were running an Intel Mac, I think the benefits would be less clear, and I'd tend to stay put.

I have no doubt that the issue is making an installer that "just works". Likewise, I'm pretty confident that, when this happens, the MTP AV USB will likewise be recognized if it has the 2.0.1 firmware and 1.34 USB controller chips.

This would be great news as although I did buy a MIDI Express XT after getting the Mac Studio, I have wistful dreams of perhaps adding to my "nostalgia rack" of old hardware synth modules someday and perhaps needing to pull my MTP/AV USB out of "mothballs" and get it back into action. To know that it is not yet an official "paperweight" or "doorstop" is a good feeling!

That said, I can't get too upset if the MTP/AV UB obsolesces someday. It's been in service a long, long time. You can't even get the updated chips for it anymore, so if you have the good fortune to have one with the latest, be happy. I would have never expected mine to still be viable so many years later!

[CharlzS]

I have wistful dreams of perhaps adding to my "nostalgia rack" of old hardware synth modules someday and perhaps needing to pull my MTP/AV USB out of "mothballs" and get it back into action. To know that it is not yet an official "paperweight" or "doorstop" is a good feeling!

First order of business if the MTP AV ever revived - replace the battery.

[James Steele]

I have wistful dreams of perhaps adding to my "nostalgia rack" of old hardware synth modules someday and perhaps needing to pull my MTP/AV USB out of "mothballs" and get it back into action. To know that it is not yet an official "paperweight" or "doorstop" is a good feeling!

First order of business if the MTP AV ever revived - replace the battery.

Yep... I do have a good one in there now, as I used it for a while with my Mac Studio. But you're right... it may be a while before I put it into service and it will need a new battery by then! Funnily enough, the only reason I got the MIDI Express XT was because I thought it would fix an issue I was having that turned out not to be the fault of the MTP/AV after all and was resolved. But I don't mind being "future-proofed" a little bit.

The sad thing is that for all the time I spent rigging up my existing hardware module rack (with the 24Ai and the MIDI Express XT) I'm rarely using the hardware. Sigh. Every so often though, I want to use an instrument from my Ensoniq EPS16+ module... I love that thing!

[dewdman42]

well this is truism. I mean I like that idea of having my two MTP/AV's, linked together with serial cable so that I have one giant virtual MIDI interface with everything all plugged in, but am i really gonna use that K2500R or XV5080, among others, ever again? There is the nostaglia of it all, but truth is software instruments sound great, easier to work with and the only reason I haven't sold that stuff is because nobody will buy it or pay should a tiny fraction of what I paid that i can stomach selling it...so.... I'd probably use my Jupiter80 sometimes though, that thing is a beast...but then again, so is Omnisphere.

But I do appreciate being able to choose at any time which out of maybe 6-7 actual MIDI keyboards for actual MIDI input. I could probably constrain that to maybe 4...but still...

For me the main point of MTP is for the MIDI timestamping, which I don't think any other MIDI devices are doing, with the possible exception of the Unitor which Apple just released new drivers for it, in other words Apple still supports that thing (hint hint MOTU are you listening). In any case, There are lots of other much less expensive smaller MIDI interfaces out there, but I don't think any of them has the MTS MIDI timestamping...so...

I do think that we will pretty soon see a wave of MIDI 2.0 interfaces hit the market...which will render all existing MIDI interfaces officially antiquated...one of the nice things about MIDI 2.0 is that MIDI timestamping is part of the spec. Hopefully that will include the ability to timestamp MIDI in the interface, even when a Midi1.0 keyboard is actually being plugged into it. We shall see.

So hopefully we will see MIDI interfaces with MIDI timestamping finally become more of a thing, more than just MOTU's, and then I will be more interested in looking for wireless options and options that can connect the keyboards scattered around my studio via cat5 and little hubs, rather than more than 30 super long MIDI cables laying all over everywhere. But it still gets back to...how much $$$ do I want to spent to keep supporting all this MIDI hardware...that if I'm honest with myself...I almost never use...its nice to know its there, but simple truth is I don't need it anymore and just don't want to literally give it away.

[mikehalloran]

There's at least one seminar (demo?) on MIDI 2.0 at NAMM this week but I doubt that I will attend. Other business will be competing for my time.

[OctoUser]

Hello.
Sorry if I repeat something. I have spent many hours the last week to get my MTP USB connected to a seriel MTP on Mac Sonoma up running. It's running on Ventura. I've done many re-bootings, re-install and fresh installs of Clockworks. I run the latest drivers there is to find. So, I got Clockworks running with Mac OS Ventura. I decided to make a test drive for Sonoma. I installed the lastest driver .... MOTU MIDI Installer (Dext 91217) and it works well. From here I installed it on my main Mac Studio and all I get is an empty window without the blue "virtual" cables. I started Logic and Cubase and the MTP channels are there to choose from. So, why does the blue cables show up on my test drive with Sonoma and not after an install on my main Mac? My guess is that a hidden file is lurking and blocking Clockworks on my Mac Studio? Best to all /Boris

[mikehalloran]

Check my screen shots to make sure that the Activity Monitor and Login Items display exactly what I have highlighted. Enter motu in the Activity Monitor Search field to display only the those. If it appears in Login but is turned off, turn on and reboot.

If only one or neither appear...

Go back to the earlier posts to see the list of everything that must be deleted. Shut down and reboot before reinstalling the MOTU driver.

During the driver installation, you should get a prompt to add the driver in Security settings. Do not do this yet—apparently, that was the mistake I was making. After Reboot, then you go to Security and Privacy to add MOTU. Reboot again.

Now Activity Monitor and Login Items should display correctly. Again, if MOTU is turned off in Login, turn in on and reboot.

[OctoUser]

Check my screen shots to make sure that the Activity Monitor and Login Items display exactly what I have highlighted. Enter motu in the Activity Monitor Search field to display only the those. If it appears in Login but is turned off, turn on and reboot.

If only one or neither appear...

Go back to the earlier posts to see the list of everything that must be deleted. Shut down and reboot before reinstalling the MOTU driver.

During the driver installation, you should get a prompt to add the driver in Security settings. Do not do this yet—apparently, that was the mistake I was making. After Reboot, then you go to Security and Privacy to add MOTU. Reboot again.

Now Activity Monitor and Login Items should display correctly. Again, if MOTU is turned off in Login, turn in on and reboot.

Hello Mike and thanks for reaching out. I read your earlier (excellent) post. My Sonoma refuses to show the "blue wires" inside Clockworks. I decided to "roll" back to Ventura and after a while Clockworks shows everything in it's window on Ventura. My question now is: should I delete everything as of your earlier post before I update to Sonoma? Or can I just update Ventura to Sonoma and delete everything under Sonoma and then re-install Clockworks with it's drivers (if Clockworks don't work all of a sudden of course)? Or doesn't it matter in which order I do this? Thanks! /Boris

[mikehalloran]

I had everything working over Ventura, upgraded to Sonoma where it didn’t work.

Will it work if you run the steps in Ventura then upgrade to Sonoma? That’s the one scenario I didn’t try so I don’t know—it should but that’s a guess. As that would take me a few hours to set up and run on a clean volume, I’m declaring victory with what I have done. Feel free to try it and let us know.