The Future of Digital Performer

[mikehalloran]

This package installs an AU, VST2 and VST3. The AU does not work on my system but the others do. Only the AAX requires Rosetta 2.

Screenshot 2024-04-05 at 5.14.10 PM.png (233.6 KiB) Viewed 321 times

Normally, I default to AU

[James Steele]

This package installs an AU, VST2 and VST3. The AU does not work on my system but the others do. Only the AAX requires Rosetta 2.

Yeah... strange that AU doesn't work. That's one of the PSP plugs I don't own. But yeah... as I said to Michael previously, I wasn't aware that developers were releasing VST2 as UB2... thought (wrongly) only VST3 could be UB2. Learn something every day. Cubase (again, I just dabble with it) does not AFAIK recognize VST2 that are UB2 since I think Steinberg is probably all about pushing VST3 so they're not going to support it in the flagship DAW. I know this caused a lot of consternation with UAD-2 plugin users as they were forced to run Cubase in Rosetta (2) to keep using their DSP plugins.

[Michael Canavan]

Seems many developers now are releasing only in AU, VST3 and AAX... all UB2. I guess VST2 will be with us for a while, but maybe after more developers get the hang of it, VST2 will go away except for legacy plugs. I wonder why Steinberg's APK and documentation (from everything I heard) is so horrendous that developers had a hard time. I know I read someone say aspects of it had to be reverse engineered by plugin developers. If Steinberg's documentation is THAT bad, it kinda borders on criminal. How can you expect developers to support a standard under those conditions?

The plugin developing SDKs are OK I guess, but everything is different, they left out MIDI entirely etc. They all pretty much hate it. Even worse is hosting, it's why it took so long to adopt. I think DP beat Live to VST3 for instance because they more or less had to for the Windows version. It's taken 15 years for 99% of the plugins out there to have VST3, that says everything. I was moving to VST before this, but I think going forward my strategy is AU and VST3 for plugins like Blue Arp, Reason Rack, MPC, Melodyne obviously etc.

I really hope CLAP takes off, it's the solution that should have happened when VST3 was announced, considering that it was so much of a pain that developers continued to use VST2 and AU of course is Mac only.

[James Steele]

...but I think going forward my strategy is AU and VST3 for plugins like Blue Arp, Reason Rack, MPC, Melodyne obviously etc.

That's what I've been doing for a while now: using primary AU and then VST3 for Melodyne obviously, and also VST3 for Console 1 since VST3 is the required format in DP to support full integration with the hardware controller. Not sure why DP requires that because I think Logic has full support (perhaps more extensively than DP) and it uses AU obviously. Although I think Logic can use AU3, which I don't think DP is fully on board with?

The remaining cases where I use VST3 are when the AUs have serious issues. Right now I have an issue with Blue Cat Audio PatchWork. If I add it to my Component folder it shows up TWICE in DP's Audio Plugins prefs. I have to enable BOTH to get anything to happen and if I do, instantiating it causes it to crash.

I also do something weird with Komplete Kontrol. I run both AU and VST3. I run the last Intel-only version of Komplete Kontrol (2.7.2) as an AU. This way it's forced to use Rosetta for that instance. I instantiate that version when I want to use NKS with an older VST2 instrument. I use the VST3 version of Komplete Kontrol (2.9.6) for all other NKS VST3 instruments. They appear with the same name in the menu when creating a new Instrument Track... but the second one is the older one. It's a lot of trouble I know. To make it easier, I edited the plugin thumbnail graphics that appear on my S88 Mk2's screens to include a little red box and the lower left with white letters that says "VST2" so that I don't attempt to open it when I'm running the Apple Silicon version of Kontakt, else I'll get an error. I haven't adopted Komplete Kontrol 3 yet. Not in a hurry there.

Oh... as VST3 becomes more robust though many of them are becoming redundant on my Mac. I'm planning to go on a seek and destroy mission and delete some more soon. One thing to be careful of though is with the Korg Collection... some of their older plugs depend on the presence of the VST2 to function. The other formats are wrappers.

[Michael Canavan]

...but I think going forward my strategy is AU and VST3 for plugins like Blue Arp, Reason Rack, MPC, Melodyne obviously etc.

That's what I've been doing for a while now: using primary AU and then VST3 for Melodyne obviously, and also VST3 for Console 1 since VST3 is the required format in DP to support full integration with the hardware controller. Not sure why DP requires that because I think Logic has full support (perhaps more extensively than DP) and it uses AU obviously. Although I think Logic can use AU3, which I don't think DP is fully on board with?

The remaining cases where I use VST3 are when the AUs have serious issues. Right now I have an issue with Blue Cat Audio PatchWork. If I add it to my Component folder it shows up TWICE in DP's Audio Plugins prefs. I have to enable BOTH to get anything to happen and if I do, instantiating it causes it to crash.

I also do something weird with Komplete Kontrol. I run both AU and VST3. I run the last Intel-only version of Komplete Kontrol (2.7.2) as an AU. This way it's forced to use Rosetta for that instance. I instantiate that version when I want to use NKS with an older VST2 instrument. I use the VST3 version of Komplete Kontrol (2.9.6) for all other NKS VST3 instruments. They appear with the same name in the menu when creating a new Instrument Track... but the second one is the older one. It's a lot of trouble I know. To make it easier, I edited the plugin thumbnail graphics that appear on my S88 Mk2's screens to include a little red box and the lower left with white letters that says "VST2" so that I don't attempt to open it when I'm running the Apple Silicon version of Kontakt, else I'll get an error. I haven't adopted Komplete Kontrol 3 yet. Not in a hurry there.

Oh... as VST3 becomes more robust though many of them are becoming redundant on my Mac. I'm planning to go on a seek and destroy mission and delete some more soon. One thing to be careful of though is with the Korg Collection... some of their older plugs depend on the presence of the VST2 to function. The other formats are wrappers.

The whole thing is insane, I really wish CLAP had been introduced 15 years ago when Steinberg decided to flush a perfectly good architecture in VST2 and Apple decided to make a one OS only plugin format. Could have saved a lot of grief, but VST2 worked back then, and AU assured a working plugin format on Mac OS.

I'm really curious about trying the Rosetta KK trick? There are a few VSTs that work in Bitwigs own wrapper for Intel VSTs, and they work a hell of a lot better than they do in Apples Rosetta AU format. Namely Absynth, Loom II, and Hybrid 3. I wonder how well they would work in Rosetta AU KK?

[James Steele]

I’m pretty sure I have Hybrid and can check. Also there’s a guy in Australia that sells NKS support libraries for VIs that don’t have them. I may open up new topic on this. But yep. If you use the KK 2.72 AU and KK 2.94 VST3, you get both options. There are some quirks but I’ve devised a workable system.

[James Steele]

I'm really curious about trying the Rosetta KK trick? There are a few VSTs that work in Bitwigs own wrapper for Intel VSTs, and they work a hell of a lot better than they do in Apples Rosetta AU format. Namely Absynth, Loom II, and Hybrid 3. I wonder how well they would work in Rosetta AU KK?

I just made a very quick and dirty iPhone video which should answer those questions. But yes... Hybrid 3.0.7 (VST2) as well as AIR Music's Xpand! 2.2.11 (VST2) and NI Absynth 5.3.4 (VST2) all work for me inside of Komplete Kontrol AU 2.7.2 inside of DP 11.31 running AS native on (for me) Sonoma 14.5 Public Beta. As I mentioned, using the 2.7.2 version of KK, will make the plug run in Rosetta2 and thus be able to open the VIs I mentioned and they all seem to work well. I also opened iZotope Iris 2 VST2 inside Komplete Kontrol 2.7.2. It will also run directly in DP 11.31.

I need to do a detailed post on this, but I have enabled in DP's Audio Plugins prefs, *both* KK 2.7.2 AU and KK 2.9.6 VST. When I create an Instrument Track this means that I will see Komplete Kontrol appear twice in the menu.. What just occurred to me is that AFAIK, DP is the only Mac DAW that can pull off this trick, because it's the only Mac DAW that can use both VST3 *and* AU at the same time. AU is the only format that can use Rosetta 2 per plugin without needing to launch the DAW itself in Rosetta. So use KK 2.7.2 AU to load VST2 VIs.... use KK 2.9.6 VST3 to load VST3 VIs.

Also note that the NKS support libraries for Hybrid3, Xpand!2 and Iris 2 are all available for purchase at very reasonable cost from Freelance Sound Labs. They include audio previews and generally work great. You'll see in the video that I've edited the instrument thumbnail graphics that appear on the screen of my SS88 Mk2 and in Komplete Kontrol to include a little red rectangle with VST2 in it. This is to prevent me from attempting to load a VST2 if I'm currently in KK 2.9.2 which is Universal Binary 2 and thus would give me an error.

Okay... so here's the video... I ramble a little bit, but it's a good demo. 6:36 run time. I don't cover how you install the different versions in this. Also, I'm staying away from Komplete Kontrol 3.0 for the time being. I have a Mk 2 keyboard anyway... no hurry to change things.

[Michael Canavan]

Hey one thing I'm curious about is how you got the Applications fro 2.72 and 2.9 in the same machine? or is it just that the Komplete Kontrol AU plugin for 2.7.2 can use the back end of the 2.9 KK application and runs in Rosetta natively? Currently I have the latest 3.2.1 AU and VST 3 and the 2.9.4 VST 2. I'm not sure how I could get ahold of the 2.7.2 AU for KK?

What just occurred to me is that AFAIK, DP is the only Mac DAW that can pull off this trick, because it's the only Mac DAW that can use both VST3 *and* AU at the same time. AU is the only format that can use Rosetta 2 per plugin without needing to launch the DAW itself in Rosetta. So use KK 2.7.2 AU to load VST2 VIs.... use KK 2.9.6 VST3 to load VST3 VIs

To be clear here, that's not the case at all. I have Live, and Reaper installed here and both can run AU, VST2 and VST3 plugins all in the same project, and all three formats are available for Diva etc. etc.

Last question if you don't mind. I'm currently able to run Absynth, Hybrid 3 and Loom II in AU as Rosetta plugins in DP, Live and Reaper etc. but they do not respond GUI wise, mostly Hybrid 3 and Loom II do not allow you to change setting via drop down menus, which of course is far from ideal. The only DAW or situation here that works is Bitwig, which only uses VST and came up with their own non Apple Silicon VST2 plugin hosting solution, the drop down menus work there. I have Unify and although it can also host non Apple Silicon native VST2's, they still have the drop down menu issue. Anyway long way of asking if the VST2 plugins hosted in KK as an AU are capable of using their drop down menus? Hybrid 3 for example?

[James Steele]

Hey one thing I'm curious about is how you got the Applications fro 2.72 and 2.9 in the same machine? or is it just that the Komplete Kontrol AU plugin for 2.7.2 can use the back end of the 2.9 KK application and runs in Rosetta natively? Currently I have the latest 3.2.1 AU and VST 3 and the 2.9.4 VST 2. I'm not sure how I could get ahold of the 2.7.2 AU for KK?

I don't have the installer anymore, but I think you can just drop in the component file. I will attach it to this post and you can try it. I don't know anything about the backend. I had to restore this machine once so it has no residual of KK 3 on it. What I would do is archive the 2.7.2 AU before running the 2.9.6 installer so when it overwrote the AU, I could delete 2.9.6 and replace it with 2.7.2.

I'd suggest is running a Time Machine backup just so you have an APFS snapshot to restore from just in case. Then remove the 3.2.1 AU from the components folder and put it in a safe place... then put the 2.7.2 AU in the components folder. Perhaps reboot for good measure, then launch DP and see if you can replicate what I did. If things go back, put things back how they were or worst comes to worst restore from the snapshot.

What just occurred to me is that AFAIK, DP is the only Mac DAW that can pull off this trick, because it's the only Mac DAW that can use both VST3 *and* AU at the same time. AU is the only format that can use Rosetta 2 per plugin without needing to launch the DAW itself in Rosetta. So use KK 2.7.2 AU to load VST2 VIs.... use KK 2.9.6 VST3 to load VST3 VIs

To be clear here, that's not the case at all. I have Live, and Reaper installed here and both can run AU, VST2 and VST3 plugins all in the same project, and all three formats are available for Diva etc. etc. [/quote]

Well that'll teach me. I should research it more. Sure as the sun rises... sure as taxes and death... even MORE sure is that if you get something wrong on a public forum you WILL get called out on it. I said something like that on FB and it wasn't two seconds before I was informed that Studio One and Harrison Mix Bus also can do VST3 and AU. Reminds me I have to go back and a post in another FB group! I'm sufficiently chastised.

Last question if you don't mind. I'm currently able to run Absynth, Hybrid 3 and Loom II in AU as Rosetta plugins in DP, Live and Reaper etc. but they do not respond GUI wise, mostly Hybrid 3 and Loom II do not allow you to change setting via drop down menus, which of course is far from ideal. The only DAW or situation here that works is Bitwig, which only uses VST and came up with their own non Apple Silicon VST2 plugin hosting solution, the drop down menus work there. I have Unify and although it can also host non Apple Silicon native VST2's, they still have the drop down menu issue. Anyway long way of asking if the VST2 plugins hosted in KK as an AU are capable of using their drop down menus? Hybrid 3 for example?

Just checked Absynth... and it was pretty good. Did some clicking around just now in Hybrid 3 and one of the menus shut down the MOTU engine. Just took a look again and the presets menu works fine and seems stable, but if you click the Parts Presets and scroll it shuts down MAS with this error:

Screenshot 2024-04-06 at 3.29.42 PM.png (22.17 KiB) Viewed 191 times

So definitely not stable. For my purposes I really don't edit presets and I load the presets via the NKS support library so I'm not clicking the UI much, so I guess I can get by. Gonna try Blue Cat PatchWork... hang on...

Well that's not good. This is what I get loading Hybrid 3 AU via PatchWork. The second level of the popup menu hides behind the GUI. Although if I click the spot where the menu item would be it loads it. Ugh.

Screenshot 2024-04-06 at 3.34.11 PM.png (428.96 KiB) Viewed 191 times

I just tried to load Hybrid into PatchWork as a VST. It wouldn't load and curiously (see below) it appears as a folder rather than a VST plugin. Not sure why that is and why KK 2.7.2 doesn't have a problem with it. I may need to reinstall it and see.

Screenshot 2024-04-06 at 3.38.09 PM.png (33.16 KiB) Viewed 191 times

The bottom line for me, however, is that I use these things like ROMplers. I'm not a programmer and don't really intend to edit. So if I load up a patch using the KK 2.7.2 interface and just play the stock sounds... it all seems to work well enough.

The other thing is that at some point I'm going to just purge this all and decide to shed these old plugs as much as I like them. I'm hoping AIR Music will release and update some day. I know Absynth is dead and that's a shame. But this is sort of a temporary solution until plugs are updated or I just decide to give up on it. Would be the first time that we have to sacrifice good pieces of software because of this.

One thing I haven't tried yet is opening Hybrid inside Vienna Ensemble Pro server. Okay... tried to load inside of that. That was a total fail... not even a GUI appeared.

[James Steele]

Amazon just dropped off more 3-ft MIDI cables. Time to turn my attention back to my Synth rack and my G4 Mac Mini Unisyn box.

[James Steele]

Currently I have the latest 3.2.1 AU and VST 3 and the 2.9.4 VST 2. I'm not sure how I could get ahold of the 2.7.2 AU for KK?

Oops... attachment was too large. Here's the KK 2.7.2 component:

https://motunation.com/files/KompleteKo ... nt.272.zip

[Westlyn]

Hey Guys:

The thread has gone off in another direction - more Apple/Mac oriented - and I'm a Windows 10 guy.

So, I thought I would start again.

I can find no way to get both VST2's and VST3's to work together. With all your helpful advice, I'm getting nowhere.

Each time, I make any change in the Primary all the other VST's are unavailable. It keeps inventing more Enable All's.
I haven't done anything intentionally, but I've got Enable All.2.2.2.2.2.2...

There's no reason this should be so complicated. I spend all my time fighting the software and no time WRITING Music.

Do I need to talk to Tech Support at MOTU?

I'm not investing any more time in this.

You guys have been Great!

Jim Westlyn

[Michael Canavan]

Hey Guys:

The thread has gone off in another direction - more Apple/Mac oriented - and I'm a Windows 10 guy.

So, I thought I would start again.

I can find no way to get both VST2's and VST3's to work together. With all your helpful advice, I'm getting nowhere.

Each time, I make any change in the Primary all the other VST's are unavailable. It keeps inventing more Enable All's.
I haven't done anything intentionally, but I've got Enable All.2.2.2.2.2.2...

There's no reason this should be so complicated. I spend all my time fighting the software and no time WRITING Music.

Do I need to talk to Tech Support at MOTU?

I'm not investing any more time in this.

You guys have been Great!

Jim Westlyn

Jim, you have to enable them by hand, Enable all just enables whatever main choice you made, VST2 or VST3. that's another question, are you able to see in the DP preferences plugin chooser MAS, VST and VST3 as separate choices? if you are, then again, you have to select them in the list then enable them, otherwise again, it will enable only the choice you made in the chooser, look at this window, do you have that chooser for the main VST type? See the three greyed out buttons labled Enable, Disable and Reexamine? they're greyed out because there's no selection in the plugins to operate on. If the Windows plugin chooser is working correctly you should see a list with MAS, VST2 and VST3 plugins, whatever is your Primary plugin choice will likely already be selected, you need to select the plugins individually and likely you can use shift to select ranges, then Enable them, and Reexamine them if they failed evaluation etc.

[bayswater]

Each time, I make any change in the Primary all the other VST's are unavailable.

Stop changing the Primary. Just enable all the plugins you have, and leave the Primary preference alone. It doesn’t matter what you set it to until you install a new plugin. Then you’ll have to go back to preferences and enable all the versions of that plugin that you migth want to use.

[Westlyn]

Michael & Bayswater:

Thanks for consistently stepping up!

I'm guessing that things are different between Windows and MAC.

I don't have "Audio Units" as an option under Primary. I don't have MAS, VST, VST3 as options, only VST2 and VST3.
I'm forced to pick one or the other and when I do so the other is not available.

I've selected and examined: passed the ones I'd like to use.

A new mystery: my Universal Audio plug-ins are listed among Audio Plug-ins, but not available to actually to use in a project. I don't know why. (I've reached out to UAD tech support, but they've been a little slow in responding.)

And I think you see my frustration: I don't want to write responses to good people who are trying to offer assistance. I don't want to explain to tech support where my conflict lies. I want to work on THE PROJECTS!

Thanks again,
Jim Westlyn