MOTUnation.com

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/10 ... -ct-scans/

ARS Technica Article on the subject

I always suspected that there was quite a difference among cables, but I didn't realize how significant that difference was. This is important info to know. Thanks for the link.

Your friendly neighborhood Phil

Good rundown.

Another Ars Technica article called USB-C a "hot mess of standards and crap" after testing 37 different cable and finding no two alike.

I haven't seen any TB3/4 cables that also support USB-2 as required for Core Audio on a Mac and all USB 2 interfaces. We've seen a number of threads on this over the years. This is why "USB Printer" cables exist as they only support USB 2 and, normally, 5W charging as required by the USB 2 spec.

Apple also offers USB-C Charger cables in 60/240W capacities that support USB 2 data transfer only. A 60W one came with our M1 MacBook Air. Since the one that came with my iPhone 15 Pro Max supports Fast Charging and is 1 meter, I'm assuming it's the 60W version. I need to get another one for my car.

60W
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MQKJ ... -cable-1-m

240W
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MU2G ... -cable-2-m

Apple does not recommend these for high speed data transfer, of course, and having restored my new phone from the backup of my 13 Pro to my computer, I can vouch that those cables are dead slow. The complete restore took about 5 hours. Per Apple:

"iPhone 15 Pro and iPhone 15 Pro Max support fast USB 3.2 Gen 2 speeds up to 10Gbit per second when using an optional USB 3 cable."

Now they tell me. Oh well, a complete restore should be something I only do once while I own it—unless it gets lost or stolen, of course (sigh!)

Anyway, don't know if I really need a TB4 cable yet but I now know to consider the Apple when I do.

Thanks for the link!

It appears the video was comparing Apple's TB4 cable to USB-C cables. Same connector, but very different specs. AFAICT Amazon doesn't sell an Amazon branded TB4 spec cable, same with the other cable comparisons. Other spec TB4 cables are available in the $25 to $35 range that would have been a better comparison.

CharlzS wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 2:46 pm It appears the video was comparing Apple's TB4 cable to USB-C cables. Same connector, but very different specs. AFAICT Amazon doesn't sell an Amazon branded TB4 spec cable, same with the other cable comparisons. Other spec TB4 cables are available in the $25 to $35 range that would have been a better comparison.

You sound just like the Ars comment section, Charlz! Quoting that ancient knight from Raiders of the Lost Ark,, the testers “chose poorly.”

That said, the Apple cable is the only 3 meter cable game in town unless one goes with the unreliable Corning optical variants.

No doubt the very expensive Apple cable is better in some applications than a <$10 cable from someone we've never heard of. But is the cheap cable good enough for some applications? And is it reasonable to build a system around a communications protocol that requires such an expensive cable?

I'd heard about this, it's cool to see it. I just wish they had done a third party Thunderbolt cable, and a USB 4 cable.

bayswater wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 6:13 pm No doubt the very expensive Apple cable is better in some applications than a <$10 cable from someone we've never heard of. But is the cheap cable good enough for some applications? And is it reasonable to build a system around a communications protocol that requires such an expensive cable?

They're not explaining things very well in the video, Thunderbolt is great for things like connecting NVME drives in TB or USB4 enclosures, do everything hubs with multiple USB3 video etc. ports, 4k+ monitors, video editing etc. etc. The other standards work for most other things USB 3.2 etc. works for 2.5 SSDs, and USB3 on down works for most musical equipment.

Basically TB4 cables are mostly needed to get more than 1000MBs out of an enclosure, or 4K+ monitors, it can run at around 2800MBs, but only with TB4 cables, USB3.2 taps out around 800-1000MBs, and USB3 is only really good for 360Mbs. So the cable you choose matters.

I was just connecting everything on vacation and I have all the types of USB C cables, they all pretty much look the same, but if you use an Apple charger cable that came with your laptop or iPad you'll get around 30MBs from a SSD that can reach 660MBs, the lack of standards as far as marking the cables is the stupid part. Only Thunderbolt cables are marked really, USB3, USB3.2 and charging cables all look the same.

USB3 on down works for most musical equipment.

Many USB 3 cables do not support USB 2 as required by Core Audio and all MOTU USB interfaces, especially USB 3 over USB-C. USB 3 is not backward compatible unless the cable is wired to support it — that's why it's important to check the specs.

The rest of the world doesn't care about audio but printers are big business and none support USB 3. That's why USB Printer cables exist.

It's interesting that Apple makes TB 3/4 cables that support all flavors of USB 3 but not USB 2. They also make Charging Cables that only support USB 2 only. What you cannot buy from Apple is a non-TB USB 3 cable that's backward compatible with USB 2. The reason I find it interesting is that the USB-C ports on current Macs support everything from TB4 to USB 2.

Has anyone tried an older MIDI interface such as an MTP-AV USB through a current AS Mac's USB-C port? I've been too busy to hook up mine. The reason I ask is because those operate over USB 1.1.

Apple included one of those TB4 cables with my Studio Display — only $69 for the 1M version ($129 gets you 2M).

Ok... seeing that there is a 3-port USB 3/USB-C hub built-in (but no TB other than the initial connection), I ordered one of these inexpensive USB 4 cables:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BQ1Y4KQZ?ps ... ct_details

Note that it is not Intel certified so they cannot call it a Thunderbolt cable. I love this description:

Certified Compatibility - This cable is USB-IF Certified and built to Plugable's highest standards. It has been rigorously tested in a variety of environments and scenarios. It should work in just about any Thunderbolt 4 / 3, USB4, or USB-C port you can find

There's no way that I'm believing 240W charging capability but I'll never have that need.

For $26, yea... why not?

Anyway, my Studio Display runs just fine if the cable is plugged into the TB4 port—but not into any of the USB 3 ports (no surprises there). I've not tested the studio's built-in hub and will be curious to see if it supports USB 2 — plugging in my MOTU M2 and/or my M•Audio AIR 192|14 should test that easily enough. I can A/B this cable with the Apple TB4 cable to see if there are any differences. Frankly, I'll be surprised if I notice any but who knows?

What I am not going to do is erase and restore my new iPhone. I'm sure it will be a good deal faster with either cable than the 5 hours over USB 2. I'm curious but don't need to know that badly.

mikehalloran wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:04 pm Has anyone tried an older MIDI interface such as an MTP-AV USB through a current AS Mac's USB-C port? I've been too busy to hook up mine. The reason I ask is because those operate over USB 1.1.

The bigger problem isn't the interface, it shows up, it's that the drivers and Clockworks under Ventura and Sonoma are DOA in my experience. MOTU haven't supported the MTP/AV for quite some time, you can use the driver for for the supported interfaces and it still gets listed in the installer when you instal, but I got such wonky behavior from Clockworks under Ventura and I haven't been able to use the MTP/AV at all under Sonoma. It might be time to call it end of life officially for the MTP/AV.

mikehalloran wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:04 pm Has anyone tried an older MIDI interface such as an MTP-AV USB through a current AS Mac's USB-C port? I've been too busy to hook up mine. The reason I ask is because those operate over USB 1.1.

Would a hub make any difference? I'd need a 20 foot cable to test it directly as its a bit away from the Mac, but my old AMT8 is connected to a hub, with all the rest of my USB MIDI stuff, and its connected to one of the TB4 ports with a Cable Matters USB B to C 3.2 Gen 1 (or whatever they call 5Gbps this week) cable. That old AMT8 has surprisingly been one of the most rock solid pieces of gear I have ever bought, I'm shocked it's still working in my setup 22 or so years later. And to think when I bought it in like 2001 or so, the USB support for it sucked so I used the serial port.

mothra wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:27 am

mikehalloran wrote: ↑Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:04 pm Has anyone tried an older MIDI interface such as an MTP-AV USB through a current AS Mac's USB-C port? I've been too busy to hook up mine. The reason I ask is because those operate over USB 1.1.

Would a hub make any difference? I'd need a 20 foot cable to test it directly as its a bit away from the Mac, but my old AMT8 is connected to a hub, with all the rest of my USB MIDI stuff, and its connected to one of the TB4 ports with a Cable Matters USB B to C 3.2 Gen 1 (or whatever they call 5Gbps this week) cable. That old AMT8 has surprisingly been one of the most rock solid pieces of gear I have ever bought, I'm shocked it's still working in my setup 22 or so years later. And to think when I bought it in like 2001 or so, the USB support for it sucked so I used the serial port.

Yes, hubs can many a big difference — or they did in the past.

I have three hubs and four cables to test. These should cover all of the bases. Fortunately, I don't have to buy anything I don't already have. I now have to wait till my new external TB SSD arrives so that I can time a few 2TB data dumps. C'mon OWC!