DP12 release date?

[bayswater]

I was thinking about a thread on things we've wanted in DP for a long time, and haven't seen yet, but looks like it's too late for V12.

The features have probably been nailed for a while, but my bet is the coding people are struggling with compatibility with macOS updates, so I'm not expecting anything soon

[Michael Canavan]

IMO the biggest problem isn't DPs compatibility with Sonoma etc. it's third party plugins. I have a few that I use all the time that are long in the tooth, and are always responsible for crashes in DP. I mean that's a potential risk releasing a paid upgrade when common plugins that end users are using are still crashing the previous version.

Someone mentioned hoped for features in DP12, to me the one that I really wish DP had was plugin sandboxing. Bitwig is the only DAW I know that does this, but plugins can be run as a separate process, meaning when they crash they only crash, Bitwig does not, you get a dialog stating x plugin crashed in the plugins window.

[mikehalloran]

Thanks for posting that chart. I'm remembering that 4.5 was a paid upgrade but no longer recall when nor what it added besides improved OS X compatibility.

Plug-in sandboxing would be most welcome. The current methods of determining problem plugs are tedious at best, especially during billable hours.

[Michael Canavan]

Thanks for posting that chart. I'm remembering that 4.5 was a paid upgrade but no longer recall when nor what it added besides improved OS X compatibility.

Plug-in sandboxing would be most welcome. The current methods of determining problem plugs are tedious at best, especially during billable hours.

There's some sort of law about that, if you're showing some work to, or doing work for, a musician who doesn't use computers, then that's when a plugin crashes DP.

[CharlzS]

I'm thinking they might be going to just Performer (sans Digital) as the name in the next round. That might change up the numbering. The DP resources are littered with references to Performer (sans Lite and sans Digital) and they seem to be devoting a fair amount of attention to P Lite classes. Total speculation, but hey, IMHO they're headed that way.

[James Steele]

I'm thinking they might be going to just Performer (sans Digital) as the name in the next round. That might change up the numbering. The DP resources are littered with references to Performer (sans Lite and sans Digital) and they seem to be devoting a fair amount of attention to P Lite classes. Total speculation, but hey, IMHO they're headed that way.

I think that would probably be a good thing. Seems to roll off the tongue better. "Digital" was added to emphasize the addition of the new "neato" ability to record digital audio. Oh boy!! Now it seems pretty redundant and vestigial. I'd welcome that change.

[muxlow]

I'm thinking they might be going to just Performer (sans Digital) as the name in the next round. That might change up the numbering. The DP resources are littered with references to Performer (sans Lite and sans Digital) and they seem to be devoting a fair amount of attention to P Lite classes. Total speculation, but hey, IMHO they're headed that way.

Here's hoping. Performer is a markedly better name. "Introducing Performer 12..." Stately.

[pencilina]

IMO the biggest problem isn't DPs compatibility with Sonoma etc. it's third party plugins. I have a few that I use all the time that are long in the tooth, and are always responsible for crashes in DP. I mean that's a potential risk releasing a paid upgrade when common plugins that end users are using are still crashing the previous version.

Someone mentioned hoped for features in DP12, to me the one that I really wish DP had was plugin sandboxing. Bitwig is the only DAW I know that does this, but plugins can be run as a separate process, meaning when they crash they only crash, Bitwig does not, you get a dialog stating x plugin crashed in the plugins window.

I agree 100%. I'm constantly battling with plug in issues crashing DP and a lot of the time the problems can be intermittent ie. plugins work when loaded but will crash DP re-opening the project. It's horrible. I also use Bitwig. DP crashes more in a couple days then Bitwig has in the 4 or 5 years that I've been using it. DP is easily the most problematic SW I use on a regular basis. Its a huge bummer and in my case this happens just as much if not more with new versions of plugins.

[Michael Canavan]

and in my case this happens just as much if not more with new versions of plugins.

It's almost always older plugins here, but occasionally a new version of a plugin is a crash fest, that was clearly true with Kontakt and Komplete Kontrol recently, and not just for DP.

In terms of Bitwig, I also own that one, and I've had a ton of crashes of plugins, but because of the sandboxing, it's seconds to either reinstantiate the plugin to get some work out of it, or replace it with something stable. I get the impression it's a lot of work on the developers side to do plugin sandboxing though, because the only other DAW I know that does it is Reaper, and they recomend only turning it on for plugins that are problematic, i.e. it's a resource hog or something.

[CharlzS]

I agree 100%. I'm constantly battling with plug in issues crashing DP and a lot of the time the problems can be intermittent ie. plugins work when loaded but will crash DP re-opening the project. It's horrible. I also use Bitwig. DP crashes more in a couple days then Bitwig has in the 4 or 5 years that I've been using it. DP is easily the most problematic SW I use on a regular basis. Its a huge bummer and in my case this happens just as much if not more with new versions of plugins.

On the MBP or the Hackintosh? Bitwig is a special case. They've devoted much of their effort to crashiness since day one. Hackintosh?

[pencilina]

On the MBP or the Hackintosh? Bitwig is a special case. They've devoted much of their effort to crashiness since day one. Hackintosh?

Both are equally problematic with DP. Sometimes AUs (vs VST 2/3s) will work better on one system and worse on the other.

I like that BW complains but doesn't crash. Makes issues much easier to diagnose. I use DP 3 about times as much as BW but DP's stability (concerning all aspects of plugin handling) is a comparatively a joke IMO. Motu tech support has been terrific In my case in terms of helpfulness (Caleb spent over an hour with me a few weeks ago on the M1) but with DP's crap plug handling and it dropping on the list of DAWs that most officially support or seem to care about its an uphill battle for everyone. Sandboxing would make life a lot easier.

For the time being It would be nice if there was a spreadsheet where DP users could report issues with specific plugins to each other as this seems like the last think MOTU will do and there is apparently no official/internal list that tech support can even refer to. If I was better at Google docs I'd make a community sheet.

[Michael Canavan]

For the time being It would be nice if there was a spreadsheet where DP users could report issues with specific plugins to each other as this seems like the last think MOTU will do and there is apparently no official/internal list that tech support can even refer to. If I was better at Google docs I'd make a community sheet.

I think it's obvious how that would be problematic. Case in point, the Kontakt and KK updates from NI a month or so ago that screwed up DP royally and didn't really play nicely with other DAWs either. A month later the update is out and they're relatively stable. Someone would be more or less full time determining which plugins work, and which need updates etc.

Mostly what we can do is report issues with a plugin to MOTU, that actually helps, although there are ten other DAWs with larger user bases now, that's not really an issue, I could say without a doubt that's because every person writing music now owns at least one DAW. 20 years ago that wasn't the case, we were a niche group.

Plus, slightly unfair to compare plugin issues between Bitwig and DP, since Bitwig is by far the least likely to crash because of plugins, and it's maybe not possible for a DAW with PreGen and a significantly higher CPU performance to implement sandboxing.

Bitwig gets 95 instances of Diva in the online Diva test posted by a Logic user. In comparison DP11 gets 140. It's not an insignificant difference for sure. BTW it's not necessarily because of sandboxing, Live gets similar results, but it might be that the lack of pre rendering or PreGen as MOTU call it makes it possible, i.e. DP's actual architecture makes it impossible.

[bayswater]

IMO the biggest problem isn't DPs compatibility with Sonoma etc. it's third party plugins. I have a few that I use all the time that are long in the tooth, and are always responsible for crashes in DP. I mean that's a potential risk releasing a paid upgrade when common plugins that end users are using are still crashing the previous version.

Can you really separate the three (DP, OS, and plugins) and claim that crashes are due to any particular pair? I haven’t had these problems. Although we’re getting to the point where macOS 10.14 is the oldest version supported by a lot of plugins, the current crop of plugins, DP and 10.14 are pretty stable here. My test volume using Monterey is pretty good too, but doesn’t really work any better on anything. The flood of problems reported here coincided with Ventura and Sonoma. So that seems a more likely candidate to me.

[Michael Canavan]

IMO the biggest problem isn't DPs compatibility with Sonoma etc. it's third party plugins. I have a few that I use all the time that are long in the tooth, and are always responsible for crashes in DP. I mean that's a potential risk releasing a paid upgrade when common plugins that end users are using are still crashing the previous version.

Can you really separate the three (DP, OS, and plugins) and claim that crashes are due to any particular pair? I haven’t had these problems. Although we’re getting to the point where macOS 10.14 is the oldest version supported by a lot of plugins, the current crop of plugins, DP and 10.14 are pretty stable here. My test volume using Monterey is pretty good too, but doesn’t really work any better on anything. The flood of problems reported here coincided with Ventura and Sonoma. So that seems a more likely candidate to me.

Sure, plugins on Sonoma with DP are crashy, if they aren't updated. That's the deal though, I've got a few DAWs to compare, and DP tends to be the one that is the most fussy with plugins, then Logic, then Live, then Reaper then Bitwig. They all can be affected by bad plugins, and yes each OS update by Apple will expose some "flaw" in the plugin where it worked fine before.
I spend some time reading the KVR forums, and developers universally get frustrated with Apple over moving goalposts with security and the GUI, they of course want to use cross platform code as often as possible and that's where the fun begins.

This isn't a particularly DP only issue, an older version of Moog Model 15 as AUv3 was absolutely hanging Logic every time during plugin scan for me about 6 months ago, it took well over an hour to get it to work. It's mostly the whole moving target aspect of having hundreds of plugins, developers wanting a decent cross platform solution, and Apple moving the goalposts.

IMO some of that will slow down, DP gets better at hosting VST3 and AU, Apple settles in a little with their new chip, and developers learn what "workarounds" do not work.

[monkey man]

If I didn't know any better I'd have thought it sounds like Michael knows what he's talking about.

Interesting. Thanks Mike.