Macbook Air M2 and DP 11 Disappointing Performance

[chokobo99]

THis was a discussion about the M2 chip.

Peter

Thanks for that observation, Peter.

In case you weren't aware, M2 = (approximately, per core) M1 x 1.25 . Architecture for both SOCs is Apple's version of ARM.

One can reasonably draw some conclusions from the chart regardless of which generation of Apple Silicon is being discussed.

I've stated this above, but it's likely worth reiterating. Just because the M2 does more doesn't mean that you can use the M1 as a test marker. Not working on the M2 has very little if any thing to do with it working on the M1. They are different enough that issues can arise, and in this case they have done just that—DP appears to not be all that compatible with the M2—even if it does work swimmingly on the M1.

[chokobo99]

THis was a discussion about the M2 chip.

Peter

No it wasn't. It was about your expectations and you not wanting to go through the process of trying to figure out how to get the performance that you paid for. Many of us here were willing to help you but you were not interested. Complaints don't make it happen.

When you announced that you returned it, the case was closed.

Considering that Peter is the OP I'm going to side with him on this point. And considering that if you were to take the M2 out of the discussion, there would be no discussion, again it supports the position. You may see what he said differently, but it doesn't change his intent. And from what I saw, there wasn't a whole lot of helping going on, but more of telling him that he didn't know what he was talking about, and that maybe he shouldn't drive a Swedish car if he'd like to get some help around here.

[chokobo99]

Hi, One thing I didn't see mentioned was Audio output. I might have missed that. I am using an M! ultra, MacBook Pro, and the performance depends on whether I'm outputting through an interface, or from the built in audio (headphone output). I assume this isn't just me experincing this. I tried for several weeks just to show up to live gigs using the headphone out, with adapters into an analog mixer and out to speakers. But I ran into the red with pops and crackles very quickly. When I brought a portable usb interface voila, much better performance with VIs. Thanks to all for all of the tips above for improving performance too. So just a question, was the original poster using an interface live or using the built in audio out?

This would indeed be a different topic, but I can address this for you. DP does not seem to like the headphone output. I've tested this on quite a number of different machines running various versions of the MacOS, and DP will get out of sync with the headphone port creating what sounds like digital distortion. The solution here, unfortunately, is to not use DP with the built in headphone port.

[chokobo99]

Okay I'm new here, but not new to foros, and I just did a fairly big data dump in this post. It's likely that someone is going to be annoyed that I chose to use multiple posts to reply rather than one big multi quote—and yes I do know how to do them. I prefer this method as it's cleaner, and if someone wants to reply they don't have to edit out all the other text. I find this method to be kinder more gentler.

I stumbled onto this post a while ago, but fell through the cracks of the new account approval system. Apologies for the delay in the responses.

[James Steele]

I can get this to happen with very low cpu usage synths, for instance the Waldorf PPG plugins are very light on the CPU, but it does take combining them with something more intensive, say Eventide Blackhole, but that's all it takes, and boom red lights.

I have PPG and Blackhole. Can you tell me what combo (presets on both) that you are using. I'd like to see if I can replicate that. As I recall, that combo is nowhere near maxing a core on my M1 Max Mac Studio. Something must be seriously wrong either with the M2 and DP in general or perhaps (I say this hesitantly) on *your* system. It would be helpful if there were someone else with a similar configuration to yours that could corroborate your results.

[HCMarkus]

I totally get the "Never use Roland" advice and have been wondering since the Peter's initial post if the Roland stuff he runs might not be the root of his problems. I never again want to have to program an A-800 from a Mac!

PPS: I am reminded how important it is to provide detailed system and usage info when seeking help. Creating a signature with system info is a great start.

I can get this to happen with very low cpu usage synths, for instance the Waldorf PPG plugins are very light on the CPU, but it does take combining them with something more intensive, say Eventide Blackhole, but that's all it takes, and boom red lights.

The problem with sigs is the same as the problem with comments in code. They quickly become outdated, and then create confusion. I've found that the opening post is a proper place to display pertinent information.

Sigs only get outdated if one doesn't update them! I posted this because I've seen way too many posts where folks don't provide any system-specific info at all. But if one is diligent in posting important details, I'm fine with that, although it can get inconvenient to always have to refer back to the first post in a lengthy thread...

I run Blackhole on a bus in every DP project (It's in my template) without issue. But I am on a M1 Studio Ultra.

[James Steele]

I run Blackhole on a bus in every DP project (It's in my template) without issue. But I am on a M1 Studio Ultra.

Yeah... even on my M1 Max Studio PPG + Blackhole is no issue whatsoever. Something is up and would be nice, as I said, if someone with similar system could corroborate.

P.S. I'm feeling like the burger special soon.

[bayswater]

My buddy who is an Apple developer and tour level computer music tech has just replied to an email.

He tells me that you should NEVER run VIs directly inside DP, precisely because you cannot control core/thread usage. The correct method is to use a Vrack for real time audio processing, but to use Main Stage to host all VIs. The reason is that MainStage lets you explicitly define Core usage (which totally makes sense as it's an Apple product.)

https://support.apple.com/en-in/guide/m ... 9453e0/mac

And NEVER use Roland Plugs in a pro situation, they are horribly written (but that's his story, not mine, so please don't comment on it. His buddy used to code for Roland tho...)

For me, this is the correct/final answer to my initial question. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Peter

That's a very interesting post! He's basically stating to not use DP for soft synths, which in many cases would render it obsolete. I'd like to know more about what his reasoning is with the Roland soft synths.

Or maybe just a lot of nonsense.

[Michael Canavan]

Would you say it is reasonable to expect that only one low cpu intensive synth plugin, and one Eventide floor pedal reverb plugin on one channel in the entire session shouldn't overload the performance meter? Because that's all it takes to see this happen within DP on an M2.

What I want is a detailed description of the problem but what we're getting here is claims, i.e. you claim M2 portable machines are crippled somehow, but do not give specifics. This happens a lot on forums, someone posts mostly to complain, they don't want help, and any suggestion that they're maybe coming to an erroneous conclusion is met with anger.

It's possible that your specific set of plugins are spiking DP, it's possible you're doing something that causes this to happen, but what is not possible is for the M2 chip to behave radically differently on portable machines than in the Studio or Mini. It's the same chip, there isn't any throttling that could happen to make it behave that much worse. So it's either something with your setup or your aliases setup that is affecting the performance, whether it be a plugin that's incompatible and CPU spiking your machine, or a configuration you're using that causes this to happen.

[chokobo99]

Would you say it is reasonable to expect that only one low cpu intensive synth plugin, and one Eventide floor pedal reverb plugin on one channel in the entire session shouldn't overload the performance meter? Because that's all it takes to see this happen within DP on an M2.

What I want is a detailed description of the problem but what we're getting here is claims, i.e. you claim M2 portable machines are crippled somehow, but do not give specifics. This happens a lot on forums, someone posts mostly to complain, they don't want help, and any suggestion that they're maybe coming to an erroneous conclusion is met with anger.

It's possible that your specific set of plugins are spiking DP, it's possible you're doing something that causes this to happen, but what is not possible is for the M2 chip to behave radically differently on portable machines than in the Studio or Mini. It's the same chip, there isn't any throttling that could happen to make it behave that much worse. So it's either something with your setup or your aliases setup that is affecting the performance, whether it be a plugin that's incompatible and CPU spiking your machine, or a configuration you're using that causes this to happen.

I've given you an example of plugins that can trigger this behavior, I've given you a machine on which it occurs (as did Peter), I've informed you of OS version to the point version—what non-specific item did I leave out? Do you want memory size? I didn't provide that, but it's not a likely parameter since it happened on a machine (Peter's) with more memory.

Maybe it's my setup/s, but Peter had a very similar issue with his then M2 MBA. I've already stated that this isn't seen on Intel, nor the M1. I've tested those, and I've not seen similar results—nor have the other n number of people using those machines for years now. This sort of evidence supports that this is an M2 issue.

And you are right, I didn't come here for help. I already understand what's going on—I've done a lot of testing on this one. I was simply backing up what Peter stated when he saw an avalanche of not-help. He's not crazy, and his instincts are spot on. This is an M2 issue with DP, and possible Ventura (hard to separate the M2 and Ventura), but I've not seen it on an M1 with Ventura. I have not tested with Sonoma.

And sure it could be a specific set of plugins, if I had not tested for that, which I did, and it's not likely to be an issue of specific plugins. I can make it happen with quite a different array of plugins, which I did mention above.

My mention of not seeing it on other M2 machines was to point out that I have not seen it on them. If you have an M2 Studio, or mini, and you were so kind as to check into it that would be a nice data point. So far however, I've only heard of this on portables, which by the way, can have very different implementations than desktops due to their different target requirements.

[chokobo99]

I run Blackhole on a bus in every DP project (It's in my template) without issue. But I am on a M1 Studio Ultra.

Yeah... even on my M1 Max Studio PPG + Blackhole is no issue whatsoever. Something is up and would be nice, as I said, if someone with similar system could corroborate.

P.S. I'm feeling like the burger special soon.

I did check into that with an M1 Studio, and as suspected didn't happen.

[chokobo99]

Sigs only get outdated if one doesn't update them! I posted this because I've seen way too many posts where folks don't provide any system-specific info at all. But if one is diligent in posting important details, I'm fine with that, although it can get inconvenient to always have to refer back to the first post in a lengthy thread...

I run Blackhole on a bus in every DP project (It's in my template) without issue. But I am on a M1 Studio Ultra.

That's the thing, people that don't provide information in their OP are the same folks that are unlikely to update their sigs, and then you are running on misinformation. Sigs are really only a measuring contest, and a waste of bandwidth.

How many instances of Blackhole can you run in DP on your Ultra?

[James Steele]

Sigs are really only a measuring contest, and a waste of bandwidth.

Yeah... well some people do indeed keep them updated and also it saves another user having to try to scroll back to the first messages of the post to figure out the system info. I don't view it as a waste of bandwidth. It's a useful courtesy.

[chokobo99]

I have PPG and Blackhole. Can you tell me what combo (presets on both) that you are using. I'd like to see if I can replicate that. As I recall, that combo is nowhere near maxing a core on my M1 Max Mac Studio. Something must be seriously wrong either with the M2 and DP in general or perhaps (I say this hesitantly) on *your* system. It would be helpful if there were someone else with a similar configuration to yours that could corroborate your results.

I have a bunch of systems on which I've been testing this out. So far the evidence is pointing at DP on the M2. Logic, and Reaper don't have these issues on the M2, so it's DP related, and it doesn't show up on the Intel, and M1 machines. It isn't specific to the plugins. Many different combinations can trigger it. The Waldorf and Eventide plugins are just examples that can trigger the state, but they are not anything close to the only ones, and should not even be considered to be the issue here.

I can't say for sure that it is a portable issue, but I have not heard of this on non-portables. And Motu has not confirmed that they have tested on any M2 machines. From what I understand they mostly have tested on Intel processors running on the other OS. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You already have corroboration in the OP.

[chokobo99]

Sigs are really only a measuring contest, and a waste of bandwidth.

Yeah... well some people do indeed keep them updated and also it saves another user having to try to scroll back to the first messages of the post to figure out the system info. I don't view it as a waste of bandwidth. It's a useful courtesy.