Cittern, anyone?

[bayswater]

Anyone here have a Cittern? If not, you might want to skip the rest of this post.

I’ve made a few string instruments, mainly for fund raising, and decided to make a mid scale Cittern, after seeing one being played in a performance of the Four Seasons at the BBC Proms last week.

I’ll make a 5 coarse 10 string version with a 23” scale. One of the things I have to decide is the tuning. The usual web research comes up with just about any tuning you can imagine with the lowest strings varying from .035” to .065”, and tunings from the range of a cello to the range of a uke. Some simply double the strings for each course, and some use a mix of unison and octaves.

If you have one, what tuning do you use and find useful? I’m looking for something that is a compromise between playing chords and melodies and can use commonly available string gauges.

Also, if you have one, what is the top made of? I have sitka spruce which would be the default, and cedar which would give a more mellow tone.

[mikehalloran]

Anyone here have a Cittern? If not, you might want to skip the rest of this post.

I’ve made a few string instruments, mainly for fund raising, and decided to make a mid scale Cittern, after seeing one being played in a performance of the Four Seasons at the BBC Proms last week.

I’ll make a 5 coarse 10 string version with a 23” scale. One of the things I have to decide is the tuning. The usual web research comes up with just about any tuning you can imagine with the lowest strings varying from .035” to .065”, and tunings from the range of a cello to the range of a uke. Some simply double the strings for each course, and some use a mix of unison and octaves.

If you have one, what tuning do you use and find useful? I’m looking for something that is a compromise between playing chords and melodies and can use commonly available string gauges.

Also, if you have one, what is the top made of? I have sitka spruce which would be the default, and cedar which would give a more mellow tone.

Ok….

A friend of mine owns a Stefan Sobell 10 string “modern cittern” that he tunes as an octave mandolin with the lowest course a 5th below: CGDAE low to high. I played a Flatiron octave mandolin for many years—no 5th course—that many referred to as a cittern. Strings for octave mandolin and mando-cello are easy to find. I believe that Sobell came up with this instrument and called it a Cittern but was not trying to recreate any historical piece in the process. I see these at Ren Faires, in Celtic bands and the like. I’m guessing a 23”-24” scale.

Cittern is also a common name for a steel strung Portuguese guitar with the lower courses tuned reentrant/octave. Think tenor ukulele and its many variations. This is probably closer to the Renaissance instruments. Either 4 or 5 courses would work. With the huge repertoire for tenor uke, fado and Baroque guitar, this type of cittern just gives it another voice. These normally have a 17” scale more or less.

My friend and I were in a Celtic band for a number of years and both the Sobell and Flatiron got played a lot. Sometimes, we’d play duet gigs with only those two or we’d alternate with our Vega Pete Seeger banjos (yea, we each had one). We lost touch after my stroke and I sold the Flatiron… It was originally given to Jethro Burns and I acquired it from Chet Atkins — there’s a longer story that I need to write down someday.

[mikehalloran]

The Puerto Rican Cuatro is a form of Cittern now that I think of it. I owned one briefly about 30 years ago. It’s tuned down a whole step from the Portuguese guitar which makes sense given its longer, 19–20” scale.

These same strings would work on a 17” scale tuned C# to A.

GHS CPR-10 Cuatro Puerto Rican 10-Strings

GHS Cuatro strings feature silver-wound rust resistant plain strings with ball ends. Designed speciall for the 10-string Puerto Rican Cuatro.

1 - G - 2 plain stainless steel strings .011
2 - D - 2 plain stainless steel strings .014
3 - A - 2 silver-wound on hex-core .023
4 - E - 1 silver-wound on hex-core .031
1 plain stainless steel string .014
5 - B - 1 silver-wound on hex-core .041
1 silver-wound on hex-core .023

[bayswater]

Thanks Mike. These alternatives seem more reasonable than most of the tunings I’ve seen. At least fingerings will be close to those of other instruments,

The instruments I’m making have a 23” scale. In the articles I’ve read, that seems to qualify as a mid.-scale., with regular scale going to over 25”, and having a .61” 5th string. If I use a .09” for the 1st string, tuning to G should work OK.

An interesting detail: apparently the Cittern was the only metal stringed instrument in medieval times. But how did they make metal strings then?

[mikehalloran]

Thanks Mike. These alternatives seem more reasonable than most of the tunings I’ve seen. At least fingerings will be close to those of other instruments,

The instruments I’m making have a 23” scale. In the articles I’ve read, that seems to qualify as a mid.-scale., with regular scale going to over 25”, and having a .61” 5th string. If I use a .09” for the 1st string, tuning to G should work OK.

An interesting detail: apparently the Cittern was the only metal stringed instrument in medieval times. But how did they make metal strings then?

Although there were citterns and metal strung harps in the mid 16th C., I cannot find how the wire was made.

My Flatiron had a 23.5” scale and Sobell uses a 23” or 25.5” scale depending.

Since .008” and .009” are used as the octave G in 12 string guitar sets, tuning to G or A on a 23” scale shouldn’t present a problem.

In my earlier reply, I had forgotten that I owned a 1925 Martin T-18 Tiple, yet another cittern based instrument and tuned like a tenor uke/Portuguese guitar with 10 strings in 4 courses over a 17” scale. I loved the sound of that but the straight, uncompensated, metal saddle made the intonation horrible when chords were fretted—I would re-tune to each chord on the rare occasions I recorded it. Had my stroke not occurred, I would have had the bridge modified with a properly compensated bone saddle. The combination of octave strings makes for a particularly lush sound. Easily my favorite form of the instrument—a 23” cittern shaped version would be way cool.

[bayswater]

I hadn’t considered triples. I suppose once I have the head and tail done, I can make minor changes to get different string arrangements.

I’ve used bone on everything I’ve done so far. It works well. This time, someone gave me a deer antler for the inlays, so I might see how that works.

[mhschmieder]

Many years ago, I commissioned a custom Cittern from Montana, probably Weber but it's too long ago (it wasn't Flatiron). I sold it to a specialty player in the Sierra Nevada a few years later after concluding I would never have time to master it. I may still have an email receipt or other data I can check for what specs and tuning I used, but of course it was an open tuning. Extremely well built and very expensive (almost $4000). They are very hard to find; Hobgoblin in the UK occasionally has some listed. I'm not sure I regret the sale, but I do at least once again have a Bouzouki and Octave Mandolin.

I was very into the celtic music and British Isles Folk Revival scenes at the time. Not so much anymore, but I still like all those instruments and think about getting another Cittern at some point. I'll see if I can find the specs on the one I had.

Most likely it had a cedar top. I simply remember tight grain, and a slight reddish hue, but spruce varies a lot.

[bayswater]

Yes, if you come across the specs, I’d appreciate seeing them. I have some sitka spruce and some red cedar I’ve laminated for the tops, but haven’t decided which to use yet. The spruce might make it a bit too bright. Those I’ve heard were were quite warm compared to other instruments of that type and age.

[mikehalloran]

Weber went on his own when Gibson moved mandolin production to Nashville before they phased out the Flatiron name. I had owned a Nashville made (finished?) Flatiron A5 with Weber's signature certifying he had tap-tuned the top for awhile. Anyway, Weber built many citterns after the Sobell designs.

Jethro Burns lived in the East Bay for awhile and taught at a friend's music store in Newark, CA. When Flatiron wanted to give him a mandolin, he requested an Octave so as not to conflict with his Washburn endorsement. I was among the group that helped him pick out a 3M with the most birdseyes I ever saw in a piece of maple.

A few years later, after he died, I saw the estate sale from Chet Atkins (Chet and Jethro had married twin sisters) and that Flatiron on the list. The price including a hard case was about half what Gryphon Strings was charging new and included a letter from Mr. Atkins. When I called to enquire about condition and why the price was so low, I was told that "This is Tennessee and only Irish folkies on the coasts want these." Sign from God. When it arrived in dead mint condition, I noticed two unfilled Warranty cards that said the lifetime warranty applied to "the original purchaser" — huh? I called Backporch Productions in Montana and Steve Carlson answered the phone. We had a nice chat where I explained that, technically, I was the original purchaser since it had been given, not sold to Mr. Burns. He laughed, then told me that the sale to Gibson had closed the day before so "go ahead and send one of them in" which I did.

I had learned to play the Beethoven mandolin pieces on mine but my stroke occured before my wife and I had the chance to record them. It was one of many instruments I sold in 2010 when I realized I would never play again.