Problem with Altiverb 7.4.7 - (RESOLVED)

[James Steele]

If you're using the AU version of Altiverb, hold off on the 7.4.7 update. I just found out about it and installed it, and instantiating it either crashes DP or causes emergency stop. I tried using time machine to retrieve and replace just the component, AAX, and VST files, but when I opened Altiverb, the parameter label text in the GUI was all messed up. Each character appeared as a little question mark as if it was missing.

I just did a full rollback using an APFS snapshot and I still have the issues with the GUI.

altiverb.png (566.29 KiB) Viewed 1874 times

Now I'm not sure what to do at this point! Perhaps download the full installer again? I don't have the 7.4.6 installer anywhere so if I run the uninstaller, I'd have to just run the 7.4.7 installer as the 7.4.6 isn't available for download AFAIK. This is something I didn't want to have to deal with tonigh!

[James Steele]

Okay... more info. First of all let me state that this is happening on MY system. Perhaps it isn't on YOURS...

First... let alone the fact that Altiverb 7.4.7 crashes DP when DP is running natively yet works FINE in Logic Pro. I've almost become used to that. Could it be that it's time for MOTU to embrace AU natively and stop with the MAS to AU "go between" plug-in support? Let's face it... MAS went the way of VHS. I have to wonder if stability wouldn't be improved if MOTU would just pick a plugin format and built it in natively? That's a whole 'nother topic.

So anyway... in terms of function, 7.4.7 is out for me. I rolled back but I still have the problems with the GUI even with 7.4.6 and I do not know where that started. But I have found out one thing. The issue goes away if DP is launched in Rosetta mode. Apparently it's not enough that Altiverb as a plug in can run in Rosetta while DP runs natively... the text in the Altiverb GUI is messed up unless DP itself is launched using Rosetta!

Again... here's Altiverb AU 7.4.6 GUI when DP is running natively:

altiverb.png (566.29 KiB) Viewed 1853 times

Now here's the Altiverb AU 7.4.6 GUI when DP itself is launched using Rosetta:

Screen Shot 2023-02-10 at 6.04.14 PM.png (562.34 KiB) Viewed 1853 times

Altiverb AU 7.4.6 IR browser when DP is running natively:

Screen Shot 2023-02-10 at 6.11.56 PM.png (643.25 KiB) Viewed 1853 times

Altiverb AU 7.4.6 IR Browser when DP itself is launched using Rosetta:

Screen Shot 2023-02-10 at 6.13.42 PM.png (625.55 KiB) Viewed 1853 times

Ugh... well, I for one am not going to hobble DP by running it in Rosetta to use Altiverb. I don't know if this will get fixed. I don't know who needs to fix it. I probably will just stop using Altiverb anymore until there's a native version, which I suspect will be Altiverb 8 and it will require paying some money.

Also see my next post... looks like the GUI issue isn't exclusive to DP.

[James Steele]

UPDATE: Although Altiverb 7.4.7 does not crash Logic, the problem with the text of the GUI being all messed up is not exclusive to DP. This is what Altiverb 7.4.6 looks like in Logic Pro. Same issue:

Again... I'm not sure WHEN this may have happened or how but it's not just in DP.

Screen Shot 2023-02-10 at 6.28.52 PM.png (402.12 KiB) Viewed 1851 times

[James Steele]

Okay... strangest thing. I re-lauched DP and this time when DP was launching it appeared to do the "collect information" thing on Altiverb 7 that appears on the DP splash screen at startup (different than the AU validation window) and I have all my text back in the GUI. Totally strange.

The problem with the newer 7.4.7 version crashing when DP is running native still remains.

Also the GUI is normal again in Logic Pro. Weird.

[James Steele]

OKAY... I THOUGHT IT WAS FIXED! IT'S NOT... somehow I guess I was still running DP in Rosetta when I thought I had changed it back to run in native. Text is still messed up in Altiverb GUI and it looks like this for me:

Screen Shot 2023-02-10 at 9.02.58 PM.png (313.83 KiB) Viewed 1794 times

[HCMarkus]

This version (released January 2023) update notes:

The Altiverb 7.4.7 update for Mac addresses a crashing bug with multi-mono Altiverb plug-in instances in Pro Tools

So, no apparent reason to install at present.

James, I'm sure Aram will send you a link to the prior version if you ask him via AudioEase Support.

IIRC, I had to install/authorize Altiverb with DP running Rosetta, after which it work fine in DP Native.

[James Steele]

This version (released January 2023) update notes:

The Altiverb 7.4.7 update for Mac addresses a crashing bug with multi-mono Altiverb plug-in instances in Pro Tools

So, no apparent reason to install at present.

Not really, although I do have Pro Tools, so I might want to do a custom install of just the AAX version of 7.4.7.

James, I'm sure Aram will send you a link to the prior version if you ask him via AudioEase Support.

I have written and asked for one, as well as sent a couple of emails detailing my problem.

IIRC, I had to install/authorize Altiverb with DP running Rosetta, after which it work fine in DP Native.

I have my license for it on iLok. I can't remember if I had to run DP in Rosetta the first time... not sure if it was necessary using iLok? So are you saying that you're not having issues with the text in Altiverb when DP is running natively? I wonder if it might be a Monterey 12.6.3 thing? I'm pretty sure you're still on 12.6.2 yes?

Here's why I'm wondering if this is related to MacOS 12.6.3: When things went south with version 7.4.7 of Altiverb, I did a complete rollback using an APFS snapshot of my boot drive. It should have restored it to how it was prior to installing 7.4.7. And I know Altiverb 7.4.6 was fine on my system at SOME POINT, but I do not think I ever tried opening or adding an instance after I updated to MacOS 12.6.3.

So if the APFS snapshot truly does restore the system as it was prior, then something else caused this problem with Altiverb well before my ill-fated attempt to update Altiverb 7.4.7. Waiting to hear if someone else running MacOS 12.6.3 can check this out. Also, Logic Pro, is not having this issue. And of course, as mentioned, running DP 11.21 in Rosetta causes this problem to go away.

[Michael Canavan]

Yeah, I've left Altiverb on my Mac Pro and access it via VEP, because the older a plug in the more likely the technical debt that gets built up.

I strongly disagree about MAS. The few companies that do support it are doing a good thing, it's far better than AU in VEP for instance. MAS is literally the audio and MIDI system that MOTU use in DP, it's like low level code.

You're running Altiverb in the Rosetta AU wrapper, there are bound to be some limitations to that, you found one. Odd thing to attempt but it's worth a try, if you have Unify or Patchwork, try hosting it in these plug in hosts. It's possible that running the plug in host as an x86 AU in Rosetta has Altiverb happier grabbing x86 GUI elements. I've been meaning to instal my Audio Ease plug ins on the Air here, I can tell you what I find if I have the same issue and what Unify does to help. [I do this with Absynth, which does not run as an x86 AU in DP, but does in Unify]

[James Steele]

I strongly disagree about MAS. The few companies that do support it are doing a good thing, it's far better than AU in VEP for instance. MAS is literally the audio and MIDI system that MOTU use in DP, it's like low level code.

I totally understand your point of view... especially about the capabilities with VEP. However, there are a couple things that concern me:

• It may be possible that having to use some sort of bridging plug-in... the "MAS AudioUnit Support" plug (now contained inside the DP app) might cause some instability. I've encountered more than a few AU plug-ins that work fine in Logic, but exhibit issues in DP.

• As far as MAS being like "low level code," that may be true in one sense, and intuitively it seems like that should translate into better performance, but from what I discovered tonight, this may not be true.

Firstly, in order to even get DP to *see* the MAS version of Altiverb I have to run DP in Rosetta. I don't think there are any third party M1-native MAS plugins. Right there, it seems the improved performance idea goes out the window. If you have to run the DP app itself in Rosetta on an M1 machine, you're crippling your performance across the board. Until third party MAS plug-ins are AS-native and don't require DP to run in Rosetta... there's probably no point in going to the second point....

However... EVEN IF I go ahead and run DP in Rosetta so I can make a comparison, the Altiverb AU will run more efficiently than the MAS version because of a major shortcoming of MAS plugins. In fact, I remembered tonight this is why I switched to running the AU of Altiverb many years ago: MAS plug-ins cannot run in "pregen" mode. They must always run in realtime. Hence, the MAS plugin will often actually put more load on the CPU than the AU counterpart.

In my admittedly small test project I was using to troubleshoot the Altiverb issue, here's a couple of screenshots of the Performance meter (coalesced/non-coalesced) when using the MAS version of Altiverb 7.4.6 while DP is running in Rosetta:

Altiverb_MAS_A.png (21.72 KiB) Viewed 1733 times

Altiverb_MAS_B.png (28.71 KiB) Viewed 1733 times

You can see in the first screen capture, Altiverb is averaging 2.08 with Max of 4.15. In the second screen capture notice it shows "RT" indicating that Altiverb is running in realtime.

Now let's look at screen captures of the Performance Meter when running the AU version (and DP is running in Rosetta when it doesn't NEED to be... unlike MAS):

Altiverb_AU_A.png (24.28 KiB) Viewed 1733 times

Altiverb_AU_B.png (31.79 KiB) Viewed 1733 times

Notice with the AU, Altiverb is now averaging 1.18 with Max of 1.42. And in the second screen capture you can see the "PG" indicating the AU is utilizing "pregen" mode.

You're running Altiverb in the Rosetta AU wrapper, there are bound to be some limitations to that, you found one.

Indeed. Still, seems a better option than having to run then entire DP app and all plugins in Rosetta to run the MAS version.

Odd thing to attempt but it's worth a try, if you have Unify or Patchwork, try hosting it in these plug in hosts. It's possible that running the plug in host as an x86 AU in Rosetta has Altiverb happier grabbing x86 GUI elements. I've been meaning to instal my Audio Ease plug ins on the Air here, I can tell you what I find if I have the same issue and what Unify does to help. [I do this with Absynth, which does not run as an x86 AU in DP, but does in Unify]

Not odd at all. I had thought the same thing and had already tried using PatchWork and had the same issue. I even tried the VST2 version of Altiverb by opening it inside of the older non-M1-native Komplete Kontrol and the same issue with the text persisted.

[HCMarkus]

James, are are the instructions Aram sent me back in April, when I couldn't get the then-current version of Altiverb running in DP Native:

Please try this:
- restart the mac (o yes)
- then go to the applications folder, locate your DP app, hit get info in the finder and tick the box for the option 'open using Rosetta'
- now run DP, try to use Altiverb, if it works, quit DP
- then go to the applications folder again, and now turn off (deselect) the option for DP to 'open using Rosetta'.
- run DP again, Altiverb should still work.

[James Steele]

James, are are the instructions Aram sent me back in April, when I couldn't get the then-current version of Altiverb running in DP Native:

Please try this:
- restart the mac (o yes)
- then go to the applications folder, locate your DP app, hit get info in the finder and tick the box for the option 'open using Rosetta'
- now run DP, try to use Altiverb, if it works, quit DP
- then go to the applications folder again, and now turn off (deselect) the option for DP to 'open using Rosetta'.
- run DP again, Altiverb should still work.

Oh yes. I’ve done this. I’ll try it again with the restart. Altiverb *works*. The problem is the corrupted text unless DP runs in Rosetta. You’re still on 12.6.2, right? It’s a shot in the dark but wondering if this is related to me updating to 12.6.3.

[HCMarkus]

You’re still on 12.6.2, right? It’s a shot in the dark but wondering if this is related to me updating to 12.6.3.

IIRC, yes. 12.6.1 or 12.6.2, definitely not 12.6.3.

[James Steele]

I received a response from Audio Ease tech support:

I

t looks like the macOS system is blocking Altiverb from using the system default font 'Arial'.
I am not sure if the missing font issue is resolved already now, if it is not, please follow these steps to get this resolved:
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/guide/f ... b34862/mac
Please restart the mac after you did this, then this problem should be gone.

About Altiverb 7.4.7 in DP 11 on your Apple silicon computer:
When you run DP natively you can only use the Altiverb 7 Audio Unit (AU) plug-in.
When you run DP using rosetta you can use both Altiverb 7 MAS and AU.
The MAS Altiverb plug-in will not work without Rosetta.

We are working on a new Altiverb version that will add native support for the Apple silicon. As soon as we have news on this we will share it with you of course.

Best regards,

The second paragraph is a bunch of stuff I already know. Gotta assume the user is a newb, I suppose.

The first part... the suggestion about font book seems of dubious value. Note that Logic is not having a problem with it, and the text appears when DP is running in Rosetta. Doesn't really seem like a missing system font situation. If I have nothing better to do, I'll try it. I did write back emphasizing the part about it only happening when DP was running natively, and how it also works fine when Logic is running natively.

Oh yeah... and did mention the fact that 7.4.7 just outright crashes DP. Minor tidbit, that.

To be honest... I have a crap ton of reverb plugs... so I might just avoid Altiverb until they native version comes out.

[Michael Canavan]

Oh yeah... and did mention the fact that 7.4.7 just outright crashes DP. Minor tidbit, that.

Just to verify your issue, I checked the x86 Mac Pro here, 7.4.7 AU will not show in DP in Intel on Mojave, it lists it in the plug in preferences, but it doesn't show at all in DP's plug in lists. The VST version runs in PG and the MAS runs in RT like you reported, but I don't know if that's a MAS issue or an Audio Ease coding for MAS issue? since all I own that runs in MAS are Speakerphone, Altiverb and the VEP plug in, and the VEP plug in always runs in RT by it's very nature.

[James Steele]

I'm pretty sure MAS never supported pre-gen. Maybe MOTU has figured out a way to do that with their own stock plug-ins (which are now stored inside the DP application bundle). I suppose I could check, but again, pretty sure that was a drawback of using the MAS format: no pregen. Maybe that's changed. It would be interesting to load something like MW Limiter or any of the stock MOTU MAS plugins and see if they will go into "PG" mode.