MOTU Thunderbolt 2 Interface and Thunderbolt 4

[gfd]

Greetings,

I am new to this forum. I have just built an AMD machine (x670e chipset, 7950x CPU. The motherboard has 2 Thunderbolt/usb4 ports. The controller is Intel Maple Ridge (Thunderbolt 4), but AMD boards can't/won't advertise Thunderbolt and call it usb4. Fair enough. I wish to move from a USB interface to Thunderbolt. I know there are pros and cons, but please humour me.

Several MOTU competitors offer Thunderbolt 3. But MOTU is known for solid gear with well thought out soft/firmware. So I guess you know what's coming. Has anyone tried, and/or been successful in connecting a MOTU Thunderbolt 2 interface to a machine with Thunderbolt 4 ports? I don't want to make the purchase if it's 'no way', but I can buy a Thunderbolt 2 to 3 adapter; and I have a powered Thunderbolt 3 dock.

Thanks in advance for any replies and have a good one,

Graham

[HCMarkus]

I've got my 828ES connected to my Mac Studio via Thunderbolt. I believe the 828ES uses TB1 protocol.

A TB2 Three-Meter cable is connected directly to the 828ES; the other end is connected to one of the Mac's TB4 jacks via the Apple TB Adaptor. It works perfectly.

Your setup should work, too!

[gfd]

Thanks for the quick reply Markus. I'll consider getting the Apple adapter and order a MOTU interface. In the meantime, is there anyone with a PC who has connected a MOTU Thunderbolt interface to Thunderbolt 4? Apple appears to have superior Thunderbolt Implementation vs PC.

[mikehalloran]

I wish to move from a USB interface to Thunderbolt.

Thunderbolt is an Intel certified protocol. USB 4 is not the same even though the speed is advertised as the same. Will it work? You’ll have to tell us. There are some magazine articles that say it will. EDIT: I have since tested a lot of USB gear with TB3/4 and even USB 2/1.1 and have not had any connectivity problems.

Some people have issues with the Apple adapter over Windows so order it from amazon in case you have to return. Amazon also has the best deal on TB cables.

A lot of time, people read “thunderbolt compatible”, a nonsense marketing term used with MDB cable and others that have the plug but do not actually pass TB so don’t be fooled.

Has anyone tried, and/or been successful in connecting a MOTU Thunderbolt 2 interface to a machine with Thunderbolt 4 ports?

Update: MOTU Thunderbolt interfaces are all Thunderbolt 1. There are no reported problems with connecting them through the Apple TB2–TB3 adapter.

Now for the good part. The difference in RTL (round trip latency) between “Fast USB 2” and a TB3 interface is about the same as moving your ears closer to or further from your monitor speakers about 14”. Yes, really.

TB4 allows multiple TB3 devices on a port. It is no faster. Again, Macs have actual TB ports.

If you get Thunderbolt working over USB 4, let us know. Update: I have — works great.

[pencilina]

Food for thought (USB vs Thunderbolt video from RME):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIf4QGYs-c

Also, FWIW, my experience using motu HW (USB) and SW with windows was not good.

[gfd]

thanks mike and pen,

If I decide to go the Thunderbolt route I'll get back to you with results, whether I'm successful or not.

Graham

[gfd]

Thought I'd get back to the thread. I borrowed a Thunderbolt 2 (non-MOTU) interface. With or without the Thunderbolt 3 dock, neither the system nor the interface drivers even saw the device.

Think I'm going to consider a PCIE interface with either a preamp with A/D D/A or an interface such as the 8pre ES which can operate as both a pre and an interface in standalone mode.

Thanks again,
Graham

[CopyRon]

I am using a Thunderbolt 3 PC (Intel) with Apple adaptor TB 3 to TB 2 and I have to start my computer two times in order for it to find my MOTU 112d, but once it does it's golden!!!

[mikehalloran]

I am using a Thunderbolt 3 PC (Intel) with Apple adaptor TB 3 to TB 2 and I have to start my computer two times in order for it to find my MOTU 112d, but once it does it's golden!!!

Interesting and good to know!

[vajoe]

I run an 828es connected to the Apple Thunderbolt adapter into my PC. The PC is a Gigabyte Z490 Vision D motherboard. The motherboard is Thunderbolt 3. I had to enable thunderbolt in the Bios, install the intel thunderbolt drivers, and use the Intel thunderbolt tool to enable the device at all times. Once all that was done, it worked like a charm.

I am considering a new motherboard, but some of the things I read say TB4 is not going to work with TB1/2 devices. Any further thoughts on this and if people do have it working, can they let us know the motherboard they are using. Thanks

[CharlzS]

I am considering a new motherboard, but some of the things I read say TB4 is not going to work with TB1/2 devices. Any further thoughts on this and if people do have it working, can they let us know the motherboard they are using. Thanks

Currently using 828es with Apple TB3 adapter on a PC also. I have read in several places that this configuration will not work on PCs with TB4. There are however PCIe TB3 adapter boards (Amazon) that may solve this problem. Maybe worth asking in other PC hardware forums.

[mikehalloran]

I run an 828es connected to the Apple Thunderbolt adapter into my PC. The PC is a Gigabyte Z490 Vision D motherboard. The motherboard is Thunderbolt 3. I had to enable thunderbolt in the Bios, install the intel thunderbolt drivers, and use the Intel thunderbolt tool to enable the device at all times. Once all that was done, it worked like a charm.

I am considering a new motherboard, but some of the things I read say TB4 is not going to work with TB1/2 devices. Any further thoughts on this and if people do have it working, can they let us know the motherboard they are using. Thanks

TB4 is an extension of TB3. On the Mac TB4 allows multiple TB3 devices on a powered TB4 hub or daisy chain plus a higher bus Voltage—nothing else, no speed bump.

Windows is different in that PC makers never implemented all of the TB3 protocols (weird because Thunderbolt is owned and licensed by Intel). TB4 on the PC is the full implementation of TB3 plus the two extras: multiple devices and higher bus/charging Voltage. The spec calls for backward compatibility to TB1 but adapters including the Apple do not pass enough Voltage for bus power or reliable charging.

None of the specs mean a thing if it doesn’t work that way in the real world.

[Spaniard]

Hello,

I have done quite a long research and tests with USB4/Thunderbolt. Extensive tests in Windows and Linux. I will put in bullet points what I found so far.

*Thunderbolt 3 standard certification requires to be backwards compatible to Thunderbolt2
*Thunderbolt 4 standard certification does not require to be compatible to Thunderbolt 2, but Thunderbolt3
*It is up to manufacturers to install internal hubs to provide that retro-compatibility TB4-TB2
*PC manufacturers do not install those extra chips; Apple has done it, so far
*If you plug directly a TB Apple Firewire adapter into a PC Thunderbolt 4 port by means of a Thunderbolt 2/3 adapter, nothing will be detected; the Thunderbol4/USB4 enumerator will not recognise anything at all. This is not a fault.
*Windows 11 has BIG issues with the Thunderbolt4/USB4 stack as they re-designed the enumeration chain. Windows 11 has a new built-in application to display the USB4 HUB connections and they are still brushing up this new implementation. It substitutes the Thunderbolt Control application, which does not work in Win11
*A known trick to use Apple FW adapter in a PC (Intel 12th gen on) is using a TB 3 Dock to plug into the PC TB4 port. The dock must be TB2 backwards compatible and will identify a Thunderbolt2 device. The dock will tunnel the FW adapter adequately to the TB4
*The discovery of a vulnerability that allows Thunderbolt devices with Direct Memory Access (e.g. TB firewire adapters) to read internal cryptographic keys of the computer, led to Microsoft, Intel and PC manufacturers go berserk trying to block these devices. Recent UEFIS(BIOS) and windows group policies are hostile against TB Firewire adapters.
*That hostility programmed in a rush, will make the firewire adapter useless even in acceptable environments as the TB3 Dock

Today (november 2023), i thinking of buying a new computer equipped with TB4/USB4 to use a TB Firewire adapater and keep your old audio equipment is a big risk. There is no warranted success for that. Plan your purchase with a PCIE Firewire controller in mind; do not consider TB4 adapters.

Furthermore, IMHO seeing how Intel has broken the backward compatibility with TB2, Thunderbolt is a non-future proof interface.

[ecarbone51]

16A does not work with ANY Thunderbolt (2,3,4) on PC. I have tried both the Apple and the Star*** something adapters and nothing works. Works ok on USB but you lose 1/2 of the throughput. Motu has had several years to address this or even state a warning that it may not be compatible with Windows Thunderbolt but they haven't. i spent a lot of money on a 16a/24I/O set up and cannot do what i wanted because of the slow USB. Will never buy a Motu product again.

[mikehalloran]

16A does not work with ANY Thunderbolt (2,3,4) on PC. I have tried both the Apple and the Star*** something adapters and nothing works. Works ok on USB but you lose 1/2 of the throughput. Motu has had several years to address this or even state a warning that it may not be compatible with Windows Thunderbolt but they haven't. i spent a lot of money on a 16a/24I/O set up and cannot do what i wanted because of the slow USB. Will never buy a Motu product again.

Hi,

This board is not affiliated with MOTU and none of us who regularly post here work for them. That said, I think we all can empathise with your pain. Who wants a system that doesn't just work?

Unfortunately, the fact is that few PC makers implemented the full TB Spec until those that recently released TB4 PCs (supposedly — see the next post).

It's possible that someone may be able to help but we need a lot more information beginning with your hardware and OS. Also, exactly what TB cable(s) are you using? A link to where you purchased the cable will help.