Inaudible Dialogue

[bayswater]

I've been having arguments about this for a long time. My view was there is no technical or skills reason for dialog in movies and TV to be indecipherable, mumbled or drowned out by loud music or compressed background noise, so it must be a production decision.

The NYT has referred to the article below which argues that inaudibility is not only on the rise, but it's on purpose. They suggest an attempt at realism among producers, a preference for talking under the breath and mumbling by actors, and general disrespect for audio people and their craft on sets.

I know some here are in the business, and I'm wondering what your view is.

https://www.slashfilm.com/673162/heres- ... g_20211210

[Tritonemusic]

They suggest an attempt at realism among producers, a preference for talking under the breath and mumbling by actors, and general disrespect for audio people and their craft on sets.

When this happens to me in real life, I always ask, "Can you please speak up? I can't hear a word you're saying." That usually solves the problem. When I ask the TV screen to speak up because the music's too loud, it just ignores me. That's not the kind of "realism" I seek when watching a movie.

[cuttime]

This is one reason why I refuse to see any more Christopher Nolan movies.

[mhschmieder]

My sentiments exactly. I went to a seminar years ago presented by one of the originators of music for film, before he died, and it is one of the most educational and memorable seminars I have ever attended. Of course, we learned why it's called a "soundtrack", for one thing.

It definitely is a conscious decision, and I can barely stand to see most movies after 1980 as a result. Apparently most people like to vibrate like they're "there" when things happen in a film. I couldn't care less about that; I want to hear what they're SAYING.

When DVD's get "remastered", often the dialogue is WORSE than before, because they figure nobody cares, so all the bandwidth and studio time goes into the picture, and maybe then sound effects followed by music. Dialogue is an afterthought, at best.

[bayswater]

Is part of the problem poor rendering of surround into stereo?

[stubbsonic]

After a hearing exam, I was asking about high end hearing loss and its affect on hearing speech when there is background noise. I had assumed it had to do with the lack of high-frequencies making it harder to sort out speech. She suggested that it was more a result of cognitive/brain-processing decline.

If that's true (or even partly true), then perhaps part of what we're (not) hearing is the result of younger people making some mix decisions (?)

Seems like there should be tricks for keeping speech intelligible without sacrificing the sense of realism. Especially where the dialog is carrying the story.

[HCMarkus]

Cognitive/brain-processing decline.

It's my birthday soon. I've decided to reverse course. Maybe it will forestall the above, but methinks it is already much too late.

[bayswater]

After a hearing exam, I was asking about high end hearing loss and its affect on hearing speech when there is background noise. I had assumed it had to do with the lack of high-frequencies making it harder to sort out speech. She suggested that it was more a result of cognitive/brain-processing decline.

If that's true (or even partly true), then perhaps part of what we're (not) hearing is the result of younger people making some mix decisions (?)

Seems like there should be tricks for keeping speech intelligible without sacrificing the sense of realism. Especially where the dialog is carrying the story.

You have something there. There’s no doubt my hearing has declined, but I still manage to hear most things well. The problem is always associated with breathy dialogue, loud music, pumped up background noise, or some combination of the above. Younger producers can manage to hear through all this better than I can. Maybe it would be good practise to extend the habit of listening to a mix on alternate speakers by also listening through a simulation of hearing loss, such as the one recently issued by Imperial College.

[stubbsonic]

I was doing a mix project as a favor for an older friend. We added a track of nice bird song, which it turns out hovered around his threshold. His hearing rolled off a bit lower than mine, so he wanted/needed a higher level on the birds to hear them. We found a happy medium where the birds were louder than what I considered "the sweet spot" but not loud enough to seem weird.

[Jim]

I'm agreeing with the verisimilitude theory - people mumble, and they're enacting realism there. This is a reason I won't watch movies in a theater - no subtitles.

But, what really annoys TF out of me is that characters in mumbly movies will be in a night club or bar, and still have a conversation at normal levels, almost always with diegetic music in the background.

COME ON! It's impossible to have a conversation at the same level you would in a home or office setting. When I go to hear live music or into any bar, I rule out any chance of having a normal conversation except between songs.

Also, why do most of the characters in ancient historical movies speak with British accents? Ancient Romans should sound more like Vinny Barbarino than Richard Burton.

[bayswater]

Also, why do most of the characters in ancient historical movies speak with British accents? Ancient Romans should sound more like Vinny Barbarino than Richard Burton.

I always thought it was because Ancient Rome didn't exist -- it was an invention of the Royal Theatre School in London.

[Jim]

Haha.

Here's something else I've noticed: In real life, many women, between around teens and up to around sixty, have adopted either a Valley Girl intonation or speak in the high rising terminal (HRT), AKA "uptalking." Some times, it's both. Males also use the HRT, just not as pervasive, and this is according to my observations - not empirical research. I post videos, documentaries, and indy movies for a living, and I notice this. Also, I've noticed people in broadcast, including highly educated people, using the HRT. I chalk it up to a form of reverse-condescension - if people sound unsure, making statements that sound like a question, it humbles them in the eyes of their interlocutors and audience. Maybe. Or, maybe it's a form of insurance in case they end up being proven wrong. Whatever the reason, it annoys me.

But, in movies, people who speak with either of those vocal inflections are usually portrayed as airheads.

Getting back to the Royal Theatre School, Bayswater, so far I haven't heard Shakespeare in uptalking, and although it might be funny for a minute, I'd rather not go there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_rising_terminal

[cuttime]

Haha.

Here's something else I've noticed: In real life, many women, between around teens and up to around sixty, have adopted either a Valley Girl intonation or speak in the high rising terminal (HRT), AKA "uptalking." Some times, it's both. Males also use the HRT, just not as pervasive, and this is according to my observations - not empirical research.

I think this is being replaced with "vocal fry". I have been accused of sexism, as this is frequently a female affliction, but I am quick to point out that this problem affects many men als.o.o.o.o.

[mhschmieder]

Is part of the problem poor rendering of surround into stereo?

Possibly not directly related, but it could have to do with the Center Channel being soaked up by special effects? So maybe they're masking the dialog, which also will generally go to the Center Channel.

The human voice is mostly in two basic frequency zones, slightly different for most men vs. most women, with vowels being fairly low (even down to 80 Hz in some people) and consonants being mostly mid-high frequencies. Cultures with "clicks" in their language might have a third frequency band.

So it can be tricky to carve out space for dialog properly. In my own personal experience doing such projects myself, as well as listening carefully to movies that have intelligibility issues, my personal perception is that the main problem is in the low frequencies, where the vowels are. Those tend to distinguish words more than the specific consonants. Probably even more so in far eastern languages (Sino-Tibetan family).

[bayswater]

Haha.

Here's something else I've noticed: In real life, many women, between around teens and up to around sixty, have adopted either a Valley Girl intonation or speak in the high rising terminal (HRT), AKA "uptalking." Some times, it's both. Males also use the HRT, just not as pervasive, and this is according to my observations - not empirical research.

I think this is being replaced with "vocal fry". I have been accused of sexism, as this is frequently a female affliction, but I am quick to point out that this problem affects many men als.o.o.o.o.

I don’t think one is replacing the other. The fry and the hrt are happening at the same time. It takes a lot of practise to do this.