Mac Pro upgrade advice

[insch]

I currently have a Late 2013 Mac Pro with 64GB of RAM and ext RAID 0 drives for my plug-ins, media and sample libraries etc. DP is running from an internal SSD. I work in music, sound-design and film.

I am looking to upgrade to a new generation Mac Pro and since I have a limited budget I am carefully considering any areas that I should upgrade beyond the entry level machine. I am working with pretty hefty DP projects with orchestral libraries and a bunch of plug-ins as well as 96k/24 bit audio. I have seen that my current chunks are using just over 32GB of my RAM. DP can be quite sluggish and crashes every now and then with this big project.

I am considering these upgrades beyond a new entry level Mac Pro:

48GB of RAM (or poss 64GB but could add later)
more powerful graphics card (16GB - mainly for video work)
4TB internal SSD - for my current Mac HD data (around 1TB inc DP and other audio & video applications) & my 'music and sound design' folder (holding all my current music projects and libraries etc.) which is currently hosted on an external RAID. I think that folder's around 1.4TB.

Is my thinking on this upgrade sound? Is running DP and all my plug-ins as well as hosting all my current project audio files on one internal SSD the way to go? I am trying to help reduce any current bottlenecks.

Thank you

[mikehalloran]

Unless you are doing high-end video or animation, this 18 core iMac Pro in the Refurb Store hits all your points for a lot less than a comparable Mac Pro. I have the same machine.128GB RAM, 4TB storage, Vega 64x GPU. Not counting tax, under $9K with AppleCare.

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/GPU ... acf541c9f3

I have a pair of LG 27” 4K monitors, one on each side. The iMac Pro can handle a pair of 5K monitors without external GPU.

[mikehalloran]

If you have a need for really high end graphics, the Mac Pros in the Refurb Store will save you a lot of money. The 5700x or Radon Pro GPU with the Afterburner will crunch monster animation files if you have that need.

There are a number of 4TB MPs in the Refurb Store at the moment with your choice of cores and RAM.
https://www.apple.com/shop/refurbished/mac/4tb-mac-pro

Apple really wants you to believe that you need the 6K monitor with these—and some AV pros do. The 27” LG 5K runs around $1,300 in the Apple store and is the same display used in the iMac Pro. 4K monitors work great, too.

[mikehalloran]

Last but not least, the 2020 iMac is no slouch and will run circles around your MP 6.1. You can get a 10 Core i9 with a decent 5700 or 5700x GPU with 8TB storage under $6,000 (my wife’s has the $300 Nano Glass option which we really like). You can hang one 5K or two 4K monitors on the side of one of these.
https://www.apple.com/imac-27/

Apple RAM prices for these are insane so no one recommends buying more than 8GB with one of these. OWC and Crucial have the correct RAM for a whole lot less—for best performance, buy a matched set of 4 sticks. $629 or $554 vs $2,600 if purchased from Apple. Apple uses Micron in these; Crucial is Micron’s consumer brand — yep, it’s the same.
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory ... 19-27-inch

https://www.crucial.com/compatible-upg ... 9-imac20-1

[HCMarkus]

Probably a tad early to think about moving to Apple Silicon but, depending on the immediacy of your need, might be worth looking into what is coming down the pike. The M1 CPU/GPU is remarkable, and the M1X, expected within the next couple of months in laptop and Mac mini formats, could be an audio game-changer.

Otherwise, Mike's suggestions are good ones, especially if budget is an issue. The 8-core 7,1 Mac Pro might not get you everything you seek. Take a look at Geekbench Scores, which are a decent indicator of performance. Note there are two measure: Single Core and Multi-Core. Check the M1 Mac Mini Single Core scores, compare to the 7,1 Mac Pro, then do the math... the M1X is reported to include 8 High Performance CPU Cores, each of which will almost certainly significantly outperform a Xeon Core.

https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks

[monkey man]

Yeah, if you're not desperate timeframe-wise I'd wait to see what the AS Mac Pro delivers.

With any luck we'll know something by Q1 next year or even late this year... I'm hoping...

[HCMarkus]

I’m not sure a Mac Pro will be required if a “Mini Pro” is released. The GPU performance of the M1 is awesome, too. I love the internal storage my 5,1s provide, but I don’t NEED it when a few external drives will provide the same functionality.

[Phil O]

Check the M1 Mac Mini Single Core scores, compare to the 7,1 Mac Pro, then do the math... the M1X is reported to include 8 High Performance CPU Cores, each of which will almost certainly significantly outperform a Xeon Core.

+1

Storage...
I recently bought this:
https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/TB3IVKIT000/

A little more than I wanted to spend, but I love it. It has Thunderbolt 3 (which is currently connected to my trash can via Apple TB2-TB3 adaptor). I got the TB-3 model for when I get an M1 (or maybe M1X) Mac mini. It houses a spinner for Time Machine and 3 SSDs.


Your friendly neighborhood Phil

[bayswater]

A number of people have dismissed the current crop of smaller new Macs because of the 16G RAM limit. Others have pointed out that the way memory is configured in the new Macs makes a significant difference to the amount of RAM you need.

When I got my current 2018 Mini, I was able to go to an Apple store and play around with the demo mini in the store. I loaded up Logic and a demo project with hundreds of tracks and hundred of instances of plugins. I duplicated tracks, added plugins, offset audio regions, created new audio files, added them in, etc ending up with a stupidly huge and complicated Logic project. The staff left me alone for a couple of hours, so I was able to arrive to a conclusion on the adequacy of the 2018 Mini for my purposes. Logic is a little more efficient than DP, but not so much as it used to be.

As reported here earlier, I can run a DP project with 500 tracks all playing a different audio file, all at once, plus a couple hundred Kontakt instances out to 100+ auxes, with a few effects on each track, and get a user load on Activity Monitor of about 60%, and the first signs of CPU stress. The basic newer Mini comes in about 35% higher on Geekbench. This is a i7 Intel Mini with 32G RAM.

Perhaps 32G is a minimum, but has anyone actually tried out the new Mac with 16G to see what happens? They have them at the store and someone looking for a new Mac can see for themselves how it does, and if they really need 32G or whether 16G using the new configuration meets their needs.

[mikehalloran]

For the short term, a 6.1 can be upgraded to a NVMe 3 x4 blade. 2TB ‘slow’ blades like the Crucial P2 are inexpensive and will double the speed and max capacity of the original AHCI blade. $199 on Amazon.
https://smile.amazon.com/Crucial-500GB ... 565&sr=8-3
The pin-out adapter for Mac runs around $16. It’s a 5 minute install not counting OS install and data transfer. Because the 6.1 PCI bus has only 2 lanes, ‘fast’ NVMe blades such as the 970 EVO are no faster. There is no reason at all to buy the OWC Aura at nearly $500.

Bob Ludwig was using a 4TB NVMe blade in his last I checked — I don’t recall what heat sink he was using to make it work in his 6.1. He was trying to use the 8TB that’s out there but kept frying them within days because of the heat —manufacturer gave him his money back and told him to stop trying.

[monkey man]

I’m not sure a Mac Pro will be required if a “Mini Pro” is released.

Sacrilege, Brother Sir Markus!

We want stonkin' v8s, mate. Gimme my AS tower ASAP!

[HCMarkus]

I’m not sure a Mac Pro will be required if a “Mini Pro” is released.

Sacrilege, Brother Sir Markus!

We want stonkin' v8s, mate. Gimme my AS tower ASAP!

I hear ye! The bigger question is: will the wife understand?

But realistically,

I've loved my Mac Pros, going back to my G4 Dual and G5 Quad. The 4,1/5,1s I've owned over the past few years have been an incredible value, especially given their upgradeability (which I have explored and enjoyed to the fullest!) But methinks the writing is on the wall. I am an all-in audio guy. Absent a truly remarkable development in software, one that exponentially increases processing requirements, computers have matured to the point that music production no will longer require a big, bad tower. Gone are the days that PCIe cards adding processing horsepower were relevant. I needed multiple hard drives on-board in the past, but USB or Thunderbolt-connected storage will handle those backup tasks with ease, and the Cloud is always available if, God forbid, the connected drives somehow fail. Integrated storage and RAM are leaving traditional SSDs and Memory in the dust. Plus, I already own a space heater.

If the rumors are correct, a Mini Pro may be the perfect machine for an audio production facility. Hopefully, we'll be finding out before this year is in the rear view mirror.

[insch]

Last but not least, the 2020 iMac is no slouch and will run circles around your MP 6.1. You can get a 10 Core i9 with a decent 5700 or 5700x GPU with 8TB storage under $6,000 (my wife’s has the $300 Nano Glass option which we really like). You can hang one 5K or two 4K monitors on the side of one of these.
https://www.apple.com/imac-27/

Apple RAM prices for these are insane so no one recommends buying more than 8GB with one of these. OWC and Crucial have the correct RAM for a whole lot less—for best performance, buy a matched set of 4 sticks. $629 or $554 vs $2,600 if purchased from Apple. Apple uses Micron in these; Crucial is Micron’s consumer brand — yep, it’s the same.
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory ... 19-27-inch

https://www.crucial.com/compatible-upg ... 9-imac20-1

Thanks Mike - that's really helpful. Worth keeping an open mind re. poss. different models. I will def take that on board re RAM and get the bare minimum when buying the Mac and then upgrade with better priced RAM.

[Michael Canavan]

I’m not sure a Mac Pro will be required if a “Mini Pro” is released.

Sacrilege, Brother Sir Markus!

We want stonkin' v8s, mate. Gimme my AS tower ASAP!

I hear ye! The bigger question is: will the wife understand?

But realistically,

I've loved my Mac Pros, going back to my G4 Dual and G5 Quad. The 4,1/5,1s I've owned over the past few years have been an incredible value, especially given their upgradeability (which I have explored and enjoyed to the fullest!) But methinks the writing is on the wall. I am an all-in audio guy. Absent a truly remarkable development in software, one that exponentially increases processing requirements, computers have matured to the point that music production no will longer require a big, bad tower. Gone are the days that PCIe cards adding processing horsepower were relevant. I needed multiple hard drives on-board in the past, but USB or Thunderbolt-connected storage will handle those backup tasks with ease, and the Cloud is always available if, God forbid, the connected drives somehow fail. Integrated storage and RAM are leaving traditional SSDs and Memory in the dust. Plus, I already own a space heater.

If the rumors are correct, a Mini Pro may be the perfect machine for an audio production facility. Hopefully, we'll be finding out before this year is in the rear view mirror.

We should start placing bets!

Yeah, the current M1 Mac Mini beats my Mac Pro soundly. Now that could be completely wrong in terms of actual real world performance but I doubt it. I think we can guarantee that the next batch is 1 1/2 times faster than the last, if not almost twice as fast.

It's weird thinking about this but the next Macbook Pros and Mac Mini's will absolutely smoke. I'm keeping the old Mac Pro around, but it's entirely possible that I rarely turn it on at all after these come out. I'm getting the laptop, the Mini isn't a guarantee to be announced at the same time, they could hold off for a few months on it.

[insch]

Phew - a lot to consider. Thank you everyone. I am not in a huge hurry but don't want to wait too long. I guess there is no idea when any next generation AS Mac Pros might emerge? At some point I will need to take the plunge. Since I also work with high resolution video I have other factors to take into account - I am not just looking for an effective audio workstation. I will also need over 32GB of RAM. I undersatnd the options of working with Mac Minis and bolstering what I already have but I think it's time to upgrade my core system since it's 2013 tech. What that new system will actually be still needs to be established.