DP doesn't even get a "notable mention", but newcomers rank on DAW lists

[mhschmieder]

https://sonicstate.com/news/2021/05/11/ ... rkstation/

Is DP the "Forgotten DAW"? More and more (including a certain well-known vendor's site), DP gets no mention even when 20 other DAW's are praised and recommended.

[Michael Canavan]

https://sonicstate.com/news/2021/05/11/ ... rkstation/

Is DP the "Forgotten DAW"? More and more (including a certain well-known vendor's site), DP gets no mention even when 20 other DAW's are praised and recommended.

Yeah that article is terrible. Maybe two descriptions were accurate. Notably claiming as of version 9 Logic was Mac only. (It was Mac only at version 5), that Bitwig is expensive... this kinda irks me, because the expensive DAWs without a doubt are Pro Tools, Nuendo, and Live's Suite version.

he also missed Sonar, Traction Waveform, Luna, and Samplitude.

[stubbsonic]

I can understand the existence of protools on that list, but after my ridiculously bad experience with PT a few months back, it makes DP's absence seem even more absurd.

[bayswater]

Perhaps these are the 20 that paid for an ad.

[mhschmieder]

Sonar DID get "notable mention" at the end, as Cakewalk.

This is not an isolated case. I MIGHT be able to understand DP being left off of a list of five or six, if based on sales (not that I know for sure that even that would be an accurate assessment of ranking), but it gets left off of EXHAUSTIVE lists that mention about 30 or so semi-related apps that are sort-of DAW's. It also is no longer on the recommended list by a particular vendor whose name I am not mentioning in case doing so impacts the forum.

[Michael Canavan]

Sonar DID get "notable mention" at the end, as Cakewalk.

This is not an isolated case. I MIGHT be able to understand DP being left off of a list of five or six, if based on sales (not that I know for sure that even that would be an accurate assessment of ranking), but it gets left off of EXHAUSTIVE lists that mention about 30 or so semi-related apps that are sort-of DAW's. It also is no longer on the recommended list by a particular vendor whose name I am not mentioning in case doing so impacts the forum.

Hard to respond to this except with the acknowledgement that DP is under hard competition, Logic, Cubase, Studio One, R....., all offer some of the same functionality in terms of movie hosting, score sheets, comping etc. etc. and only R.. has less of a big name backing it. It's hard to compete with Yamaha, Avid, Apple, Prosonus etc.

I'm a huge fan of DP, that's not the question, but it's obvious it needs to shore up the UX a bit. It's in a mess right now. That's not me trying to be a typical naysayer, I don't want to say this or think it will be met with much appreciation, I get that. Where DP10.13 stands though, the UX is all over the place, Clips and looping are essentially a mess, you can't loop the regular MIDI or audio in a track, and you can't edit MIDI/audio in Clips in anything but the simplified Clip Editor. You can't loop MIDI/audio in the Tracks window. So there's this push to get DP to modernize a bit, but it's stopped halfway, it doesn't integrate with the old way at all, and it's not as complete of a solution as any of the other DAWs that do Clips. This goes to even control surfaces, all the other DAWs have multiple solutions to dealing with clips in an interactive way, with Novation and Akai products as well as iOS solutions, DP has MIDI learn, no haptic response from any controller, none. DP's iOS solution DP Control was one of the first iOS controllers, and it's abandoned by MOTU, DOA. So some of it's unpopularity is IMO due to the current state.

I've attended most of MOTU's webinars on DP and I really think they're great, it does point towards a level of commitment to DP that MOTU have, keeping Matt busy during these times etc. There's not any nice way to say it though, DP isn't getting the kind of market share it used to, it's audience is mainly older professionals, and it's largely forgotten by anyone under 35. Steve here has argued that there's no way to know DP's sales VS other DAWs and that's true, but there are signs. Facebook groups, Logic 85,000 followers, DP 3,700. Plus there are dozens of groups for Logic, that's just the most popular one, there are 4 for DP if you count MOTU's official group as well.

None of this means DP is going away, there are vastly more users of DAWs these days than in the past, since it's become really popular to write electronic music at home after work etc. 20,000 customers world wide upgrading at $200 is 4 million every three years, plenty of money to hire 3-4 developers to keep DP current without losing money at all for MOTU. I don't think that's an unrealistic number, considering Ableton stated they had 2 million unique users about 7 years ago. Obviously R.... is a project for a rich kid, and Apple uses Logic to keep people on Mac OS... but even then Cubase, DP, etc. don't need a huge audience to keep competitive.

So yeah, SOS and others are ruling out DP lately, that's not really that unusual, hell think of poor Samplitude or Waveform? SOS also point at by accident the utter ridiculousness of comparing DAWs of different types. Pro Tools and Renoise have ZERO in common, it's an absolutely different market, same with FL Studio and Mixbuss. It's like none of these writers have a clue anymore? There are at least three distinct types of DAWs:

Traditional "all in one" DAWs- Cubase, DP, Studio One, R..., Logic etc.

"Recording studio" DAWs- Pro Tools, Mixbuss etc.

"Producer" DAWs - FL Studio, MPC, Reason, Bitwig, Live, ReNoise etc.

Of course none of this is defined, Logic is also a "Producer" DAW, any DAW can be any of these things mostly. All in one DAWs I think of as "composer" and recording studio DAWs, but the difference to "producer" is small, mostly more DAW tricks for after the fact automation in producer DAWs, hard quantization etc. but at some point they aren't similar, at all. Mixbuss is not what Hip Hop is made on these days and no one would go into a studio that used FL Studio to record orchestras.

This is a long winded way to say these lists are stupid, they haven't made any sense for years, and DP doesn't need their attention to do well, it just needs a freaking update that integrates the UX a bit, gets an articulation management system, MPE, M1 support and streamlines everything.

[bayswater]

Michael, whether or not I agree with these observations, I doubt they have anything to do with the reason DP was omitted from the list.

[Michael Canavan]

Michael, whether or not I agree with these observations, I doubt they have anything to do with the reason DP was omitted from the list.

The observation boils down to DP not being near the top five most popular DAWs out there, therefore not getting any love from SOS. I'm sorry to others here that would argue against it, but Pro Tools, R...., Cubase, Logic, Live, Studio One, FL Studio.. all have not arguably IMO a much much larger market share.

My novella is about the reasons I see this as being true, namely DP while having great "bones" is not keeping up with the modern features that people want, and not all of them are "producer" style features, notably articulation management, iOS software, MPE support, and in general control surface support.

There's a new version on the horizon, but I'm not counting on every box being ticked, but again, DP doesn't need love from SOS and a large market share to survive and even thrive. If you don't see it's relative unpopularity as a reason for SOS to ignore it, I agree with that, but to deny that's a contributing factor is at this point, just getting weird to me.

[mhschmieder]

Actually, that' not the observation, if you're referring to the reason I made the post. Or maybe you're referring to your own observation?

I was pointing out that it doesn't even make the Top 30, as an also-ran! And I don't think the authors of such articles are unaware of its existence.

This also refers to major audio sales sites, some of whom used to be major proponents of DP.

[bayswater]

Michael, Just saying I think you might be overestimating the thoroughness and quality of the analysis that goes into the published rankings. Sure DP has some problems that we need to see fixed, but there are some real lemons in those these top X lists. In the case of Sonicstate I doubt there was any analysis at all.

[Michael Canavan]

Actually, that' not the observation, if you're referring to the reason I made the post. Or maybe you're referring to your own observation?

I was pointing out that it doesn't even make the Top 30, as an also-ran! And I don't think the authors of such articles are unaware of its existence.

This also refers to major audio sales sites, some of whom used to be major proponents of DP.

There are 14 DAWs mentioned in the website you posted, not sure where you're getting the 30 number from? though that's probably how many DAWs are out there at this point.

Like I mentioned I think DP gets passed up because the others are vastly more popular, and the criteria is massively based on some really strange or non existent standards. Mixbuss is not an All in One DAW, I couldn't possibly see using it to control a studio with MIDI hardware, or run virtual instrument etc. FL Studio is not a recording studio DAW, the idea of using is to record a string quartet is ridiculous. ReNoise? as something that you record your guitar into???

So what are the lists made up of other than popularity contests?

[Michael Canavan]

Michael, Just saying I think you might be overestimating the thoroughness and quality of the analysis that goes into the published rankings. Sure DP has some problems that we need to see fixed, but there are some real lemons in those these top X lists. In the case of Sonicstate I doubt there was any analysis at all.

I don't disagree, but I'm certain their main criteria is popularity. Though ReNoise I feel is thrown in because the author liked Trackers as a kid...

There's numerous flaws in the article, the price for Bitwig for instance is in USD, all the other prices are in British pounds, so they call Bitwig expensive.. It's just sort of sad, Sonicstate do a great job with hardware synth reviews for instance, but this is just a dog of an article.

[mhschmieder]

There are 20 including the special mentions, and the headline said 20 (at least it did when I first read it; the web is ever-evolving). Several e-sales sites and magazines have had surveys of up to 30 DAW's and related products. All have left DP off. I haven't seen DP mentioned in a long time now. But maybe this particular article has a specific national bias (e.g. U.K.)? DP's presence may be stronger stateside?

[Michael Canavan]

There are 20 including the special mentions, and the headline said 20 (at least it did when I first read it; the web is ever-evolving). Several e-sales sites and magazines have had surveys of up to 30 DAW's and related products. All have left DP off. I haven't seen DP mentioned in a long time now. But maybe this particular article has a specific national bias (e.g. U.K.)? DP's presence may be stronger stateside?

I'm a dork and counted the DAWs mentioned. 10, plus 4 notable runner ups or whatever.
I logged in and posted about how dumb I though the article was. Too many mistakes not to to dog them publicly about it.

Yes, DP isn't that popular in the UK, I've noticed that online. < Neither are macs though, so it's not that odd that DP isn't a big hitter there. What's odd is it seems pretty popular in Australia , at least five Aussies show up all the time to the webinars, and in general I notice their presence, Monkey Man might have me biased that way though!

[mhschmieder]

Thanks for making your opinion heard at Sonic State. I do believe it makes a difference.