What is the future of DP?

[dix]

I’m sure Logic has changed and possibly improved since I formed my mostly negative impression way back when, but the experience put Cubase on my radar as the ship to jump to in the event DP ever sinks. At least I don’t know I hate it (yet?). I’ve seen a lot of YouTube videos etc recently that really makes Cubase look like the likely place to jump.

I know Logic is what DP gets compared to here mostly, but I’d be very interested in a DP users impression of Cubase.

[bayswater]

I’m sure Logic has changed and possibly improved since I formed my mostly negative impression way back when, but the experience put Cubase on my radar as the ship to jump to in the event DP ever sinks. At least I don’t know I hate it (yet?). I’ve seen a lot of YouTube videos etc recently that really makes Cubase look like the likely place to jump.

I know Logic is what DP gets compared to here mostly, but I’d be very interested in a DP users impression of Cubase.

I abandoned Cubase for DP 4/5. Cubase was great on the Atari and it's transition to the Mac was well done. But at some point they moved to Windows and turned the Mac version into a port, and a very bad one, somewhere around version 4 or 5. It was a disaster. I had already bought Logic 5.5 as a backup, but found DP much better at the time.

I've had a look at Cubase now and then since, and it has clearly improved on the Mac, but I don't see a lot to make it worth the upheaval. One thing I remember that was a big difference was the level of support versus abuse you get from the user community (in favour of this forum). You get a lot of S&A on the Cubase forum. I've been able to do a lot with DP because of help I get here, and from MOTU, who at one point seemed to have me confused with a member of the Who.

If DP sinks, I'll keep using it in it's current version at least for MIDI and maybe link it up with Mixbus for audio. I have templates for using DP linked to Mixbus or DP linked to Logic, and use them from time to time if I want to use the Mixbus channel strip, or Logic VIs, drum editors, etc.

[Rick Cornish]

I’ve been a (D)P user since v1, so it would be unimaginable to switch to a different platform. I guess that means I’m here for the duration. With regard to a couple comments I’ve seen:

I do occasionally have Logic envy when I see all the VIs it comes with and the extent of their upgrades—all very impressive, but that goes away in a hurry when I look at the UI. Apple is a company that excels in UI design (and product design in general), but they made two bad moves (in my relatively worthless opinion) in building Logic on the dregs of Vision and Final Cut on the Media 100 model. Both terrible, clunky user interfaces that still haunt those products. Now I know some really talented and successful people who use Logic very effectively and seem to like it, so this isn’t an indictment of anyone who chooses to use it, just my own personal observation. (BTW: Every editor I know abandoned Final Cut years ago.)

I’m not the least bit concerned about Big Sur support... it’ll happen eventually. I never wanted to be the first kid on my block to have a new OS, and after years in the video world, I’m used to having Avid take a year or more to qualify a MacOS update. Not something that keeps me up at night.

I guess I always felt that (Digital) Performer was a musician's DAW. It just seems suited to the composer, arranger, or performer. It would be interesting to know what percentage of users of the major DAWs read music. I bet DP would be among the highest.

[Michael Canavan]

Apple is a company that excels in UI design (and product design in general), but they made two bad moves (in my relatively worthless opinion) in building Logic on the dregs of Vision and Final Cut on the Media 100 model. Both terrible, clunky user interfaces that still haunt those products.

As a weirdo who knows this stuff, Logic most definitely wasn't built off the interface of Vision. Logic was an offshoot company from Steinberg, just less obvious than maybe Studio One, sort of like how Bitwig is from Ableton Live. It's beginnings are almost as old as Vision and DP.

IMO it's an obvious design choice that Emagic made to make their original MIDI sequencer Notator not replicate traditional studio hardware, this is the big difference between Logic and DP. The signal path in DP is clear to anyone whose owned or worked in a traditional recording studio. Logic is closer to Max MSP than it is to that. Basically it follows a DSP path, as evidenced in it's Environment.

As far as notation, you're probably right, in terms of percentage of the user base I would bet DP has a higher base of musicians who can read sheet music etc. Though IMO the fact that MOTU has still not introduced some sort of articulation mapping for orchestral instruments has to affect this when there are four DAWs now that have this feature: Cubase, Logic, Sonar, and Studio One. This will change soon though, reps from DP have hinted they're working on a solution to this.

[Rick Cornish]

As a weirdo who knows this stuff, Logic most definitely wasn't built off the interface of Vision. Logic was an offshoot company from Steinberg, just less obvious than maybe Studio One, sort of like how Bitwig is from Ableton Live. It's beginnings are almost as old as Vision and DP.

OK—I stand corrected on the DAW Logic descended from. Thanks for correcting my mistaken impression.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[stubbsonic]

I guess I always felt that (Digital) Performer was a musician's DAW. It just seems suited to the composer, arranger, or performer. It would be interesting to know what percentage of users of the major DAWs read music. I bet DP would be among the highest.

That's always been my impression, too. Everything that DP does seems "mature". Though DP seems rooted in "traditional" theory to some degree, it doesn't make this a weakness. It is a sublime example of consistency and options-- especially with regard to rhythm, time-signatures, beat values, quantizing, scales, chords, transposition, etc. etc. Of course, the notation is limited, but within it's little feature set, it mostly does everything right.

As a weirdo who knows this stuff, Logic most definitely wasn't built off the interface of Vision. Logic was an offshoot company from Steinberg, just less obvious than maybe Studio One, sort of like how Bitwig is from Ableton Live. It's beginnings are almost as old as Vision and DP.

OK—I stand corrected on the DAW Logic descended from. Thanks for correcting my mistaken impression.

I remember C-Lab/Emagic as the original developers of Logic. I didn't realize they were related to Steinberg.

[Tritonemusic]

As a weirdo who knows this stuff, Logic most definitely wasn't built off the interface of Vision. Logic was an offshoot company from Steinberg, just less obvious than maybe Studio One, sort of like how Bitwig is from Ableton Live. It's beginnings are almost as old as Vision and DP.

I remember C-Lab/Emagic as the original developers of Logic. I didn't realize they were related to Steinberg.

I thought is was C-Lab-Emagic, too. Wasn't Steinberg a competitor?

[pencilina]

This will change soon though, reps from DP have hinted they're working on a solution to this.

MIcheal (or anyone),
Are you in touch with reps from MOTU?
If so, do do you know someone who could possibly help this user community constructively address resolving the prolonged issues we've been dealing with in terms of DPs functionality and UX?
If not, does anyone have any ideas how we might be able to positively engage with MOTU to help improve (or at least solidify) DP rather then the usual sending tech notes and suggestions (which seem ineffective in my experience)?

[dix]

This will change soon though, reps from DP have hinted they're working on a solution to this.

MIcheal (or anyone),
Are you in touch with reps from MOTU?
If so, do do you know someone who could possibly help this user community constructively address resolving the prolonged issues we've been dealing with in terms of DPs functionality and UX?
If not, does anyone have any ideas how we might be able to positively engage with MOTU to help improve (or at least solidify) DP rather then the usual sending tech notes and suggestions (which seem ineffective in my experience)?

I'm not sure what this refers to. I use DP continuously and have no real issues. Certainly none with functionality and user experience. Maybe you just mean general communications?

Perhaps check out the webinars pencilina. They always include a generous Q&A. As many longtime users will tell you, even this "hint" that Michael gleaned from the webinars is dramatically more info than DP users usually get historically. For better or worse, it's how MOTU has always conducted their business.

[wunderpit]

I would call a Big Sur/M1 post from Nov 12, 2020, with no DP update in 6 months, a prolonged issue.

[Michael Canavan]

What I get told over and over again is to just throw them here:
https://motu.com/en-us/suggestions/

Hopefully I’m not on some blacklist by now.

UX wise the bones are good to DP, better than Logic, that’s not the issue.
I have been messing around with Logic a bit lately though and the commands are a bit more robust, Folder tracks in Logic are more useful, the folder itself houses a VCA type fader, and there’s a key command that allows you to fold and unfold the folder without using the mouse, I’m a big fan of things like that. In DP you can’t select the folder track at all, you can merely mouse to the arrow to unfold or fold the contents. So this is the sort of thing UX wise I would like to see, folder tracks for Chunks for instance. Things a that make navigating the interface faster.

[Michael Canavan]

As a weirdo who knows this stuff, Logic most definitely wasn't built off the interface of Vision. Logic was an offshoot company from Steinberg, just less obvious than maybe Studio One, sort of like how Bitwig is from Ableton Live. It's beginnings are almost as old as Vision and DP.

I remember C-Lab/Emagic as the original developers of Logic. I didn't realize they were related to Steinberg.

I thought is was C-Lab-Emagic, too. Wasn't Steinberg a competitor?

C-Lab split from Steinberg, or rather ex Steinberg employees started C-Lab.

[Michael Canavan]

I would call a Big Sur/M1 post from Nov 12, 2020, with no DP update in 6 months, a prolonged issue.

Well to be fair, there are only four DAWs that have M1 native betas or working versions out right now, and one of them Bitwig, was just announced in public beta yesterday. There are at least 15 DAWs on Mac OS. Pro Tools, Live and Cubase are not M1 Ready, of the big players only Logic and FL Studio are.

[wunderpit]

I would call a Big Sur/M1 post from Nov 12, 2020, with no DP update in 6 months, a prolonged issue.

Well to be fair, there are only four DAWs that have M1 native betas or working versions out right now, and one of them Bitwig, was just announced in public beta yesterday. There are at least 15 DAWs on Mac OS. Pro Tools, Live and Cubase are not M1 Ready, of the big players only Logic and FL Studio are.

Fair, I guess. Pandemic, layoffs (probably) and completely new architecture all wrapped up in a nice package for us users. **fart noise**

[pencilina]

Perhaps check out the webinars pencilina. They always include a generous Q&A. As many longtime users will tell you, even this "hint" that Michael gleaned from the webinars is dramatically more info than DP users usually get historically. For better or worse, it's how MOTU has always conducted their business.

HI Dix,

I'm a user of 25 years and have experienced how MOTU conducts itself. And it's a bummer.

-Broken surround panners for last the last 5 years at least in 7.1. A big one for me because I work on installations. Tech support told me they were aware of this two years ago. Still not fixed. (Also the exclusion of an atmos like 7.1 (3/4.1) format is a joke. I believe what motu chose is SDDS.
-Broken DP control app for the last 8 years. I used this all the time while it worked.
-Movie playback from the start of a sequence sometimes not working. This was an issue on windows that I don't think was fixed which I can't believe made it out the door.
-And the biggest for me, PSP and Waves plugins not working on windows. Frozen GUIs on playback. Waves doesn't officially support VST on DP in either platform and of course MOTU doesn't acknowledge a problem or let alone see any necessity to fix it.
-Windows font legibility is still an issue. I can't tell the difference since it was apparently fixed.
-Also windows GUI is FUNKY I've had issues with disappearing windows.

and thanks, I'll try and check out the next webinar.